^ he meant Ahmadis
they are not waiting for Mahdi/Maseeha because to them it's Mirza Ghulam Ahmed
and they believe that Isa (as) was crucified and hence died so they are not waiting for him either

(correct me if i am wrong insha ji)

nice topic indeed. but still i want to learn people that majority and the mainstream sunni purist movement is salafi respectively, just as shia twelvers are known as ithna ashari... it would bring forth decency in the discussion.

oh sorry i dont know then.. i dont know much about Ahmadis

We believe that Hazert Isa (as) survived the cursifiction traveld to india and died as natural death at the age of 120. If you want more info on this you can visit www.tombofjesus.com.

We are not waiting for anyone because we beilive that Hazret Mirza sahib is that Imam mehdi and Massiah whos coming was foretold by the Holy Prophet (saw) and all the other religions.

is that why Muslim people hate Jewish people because Dajjal is Jew? :-\ but i thot Moses was a Jew and we accept him in our religion.

The Jews are going to be the first people to follow Dajjal.


Another difference between Sunnis and Shias that I haven't seen mentioned is that Sunnis believe Imam Mehdi will come to this Earth and lead the Muslims. Shias believe him to be the 12th Imam who got scared during the heat of battle, hid in a cave and occultated.

why would Jewish people follow Dajjal?

@Panga: uh thats not true.. Shia's dont believe that.. i am Shia.. we believe he is the 12th Imaam but he will come and lead the Muslims as well.. Panga stop makin up stuff when you dont know..

@BF- I am speaking the truth. I left out the part where Shias believe he will lead the Muslims as well because that's a similarity, not a difference. However the major difference is that Sunnis don't believe him to be the 12th Imam and they also don't believe that he got scared during a battle and ran into a cave which Shias believe happened.


Because what he has to offer will please the Jews the most.

what is IT going to offer? i heard Dajjal is the Television somewhere. I dont know. My wife is Jewish i hope she doesn't fall into Dajjal's crap.

Just for my satisfaction that you know what we believe i have to post this..




Resource: http://www.think-israel.org/kuntzel.ahmadinejad.html

Are you Shia? Funny, because I have considered my self a Shia for the past good 4-5 years now and have never heard this story that you have quoted. And exactly which "heat of the battle" are you referring to that some how you imply that the Shias so proudly seem to claim that the Imam got scared and supposedly hid and ran away.

Everyone knows who really used to run away from battles bro. . .

ali imran u my shia homie but this isnt the place to throw in cheap shots lol

What cheap shots. He claimed something so I want to know what he's on about. . .

this is a list lol just dw yo
its all good homie

west siiiide

Ali Imran i think i have cleared his mis-conception.. as i've quoted above for him....




Resource: http://www.think-israel.org/kuntzel.ahmadinejad.html

These misconceptions make me sad.

This is not it NightMareGirl....

There are plenty of differences, they start with this view and when you get into detail they keep diverting from Islam and so on. For further detailed discussion on it. You may start another thread.

Its not it for you, because you dont want it to be it... you want something else to be wrong in us too...

Its like someone looks for flaws in other person, and just doesn't feel satisfied until he can make a mock out of the person publicly.. not a very wise thing to do =]

Even if an ahmadi will say I believe this fairly.. You will say oh they just pretend or they have more differences too...

Jis ka deen hai woh keh raha hai mera yeh deen hai, phir bhi app keh rahe hein oh nahi yeh nahi hai is ka deen, yeh hai, aise hein yeh etc etc...

does it sound ok in any way? not to me really...

This is the basic basic reason why we have issues and fatwas and laws which declare these sects and even call some kafirs.

hum yeh jatana chahte hein keh "we are better Muslims". rest are all just following something wrong... or are not even Muslims.

What are we doing? have you ever thought?

Upna toh iman dekh lein pehle phir janchiye gaa dosroon ka bhi.

and if this is still not it then i leave it on Allah.

NMG... thanks... =] thats all i wanted to hear... feels like i was heard ... we can keep the differences and there is no harm in that.. but a mutual respect and understanding is all that we need...

Some more details for differences with Shiates...


http://ca.youtube.com/watch?v=2kSjfx8cx54

http://ca.youtube.com/watch?v=iMhgt3JRqeU

Blah blah blah.

Al-Karajiki says in ‘Kanz al-Fawaid’: “ The reason for the occultation of the Imam was the threat from the unjust rulers and their search (for him) to kill him, and his being informed (by Allah) that whenever he brings himself out, they will kill him, and that whenever they are able to get him, they will eliminate him. It is only when he will be established and is powerful that it becomes incumbent on him to perform his duties,that is when there is no hindrance and fear has been removed as regards his life and existence. Whenever such is not possible it is compulsory to practice taqiyyah and occultation due to this reasons is mandatory. This is because freeing oneself from harm is mandatory rationally and traditionally. (13) Tusi limited the causes of the occultation to fear.

Oh you Almighty CD knower of everything. My freind you dont know nothing about what we believe, what you know is assumptions, and what you have read that is anti ahmadiyyat. Just like reading islam from a christian website or a christian point of view of islam.

Nauzu Billah... Please refrain your thoughts and becareful while using such words.

Thanks...




Well I know it very well as I have unfortunately met so many Ahmedis by myself though I did not that earlier because they avoid disclosing it.

One of them was an "official Preacher" preacher of this group, I have long discussion with him about this and for your kind info there are two sub groups in Ahmedis One is called Lahori's groups other represents the rest.

Anyhow once again, I am pulling myself back from this discussion just because i dont want to talk abt it in this particular thread.

dont blah blah at me you jerk.. if you're going to be rude then dont talk to me at all.. coz i dont need stupid people like you to talk to..

That still doesnt mean anything, in order to know something you have to study it and experience it.

lol you're the one who said I was making stuff up. The Shia belief on Imam Mahdi's occultation and hiding in the cave is well documented all over the internet and in historic books.

Insha_ji and ocean i wonder why your second Kalifa Mirza Bashir ud din in his book A'ina-e-Sadaqat( The Mirror of Truth) Page no 35 write : " All muslims who dont come under the bayat of Hazrat Massiah mirza Ghulam Ahamd are kafirs and outside the fold of islam "

according to him

we hold that the revelation which came to the Promised Messiahas are such that their acceptance is obligatory on mankind in general,to us, the man who rejects the Promised Messiahas is a kafir agreeably to the teachings of the Holy Quran,although he may well be a believer in all the other truths of religion because the presence even of one of the necessary conditions of Kufr is sufficient to make a man kafir.

I think you should try to clear our misconception about Ahmidyea Movemet by informing us about the major differences between qadyani and non Qadyani.Misconception is there because you hide your actual belief. What you think of Mirza ghulam Ahmad?. Is it right that Mirza claimed to be the prophets like hazrat Isa(PBUH) and hazrat Daneal (PBUH) to restore and re-establish the law after mankind have goe astray?. Dont Qadyani think that Mirza came to re-establish and propagate the Quranic law just as Jesus(PBUH) came with no new law but only confirmed the Torah?.

We believe in Hadhrat Mirza Ghulam Ahmed is a prophet just as the others prophets, yes thats true.

And that he didnt come with any new shariyah but same as the teachings of Ahazoor SAW and the Holy Quran...

just like most non ahmadi muslims are waiting for the arrival of Hadhrat Isa AS.. we believe Hadhrat Mirza is that person who was promised to come and has the same qualities as Hadhrat Isa..

rest is same... like he will gather people under one hand etc... and will bring no new teaching but will reform the ones of Ahazoor SAW... which Muslims have forgotten...

(the promise for hadhrat isa to come is used as a symbol and metaphor, just like jewish denied the claim of hadhrat isa AS as they believed someone will fall from sky, same is with the Muslims today.. that they think someone will actually come from sky... while we believe was just used as an example.... )

the belief to think of Hadhrat Mirza ghulam ahmed as a prophet is because if hadhrat isa will come Muslims will think of him as prophet too wont they? other than he being promised messiah...

now,

According to the pillars of Iman we all believe in:

Allah par iman lana

Allah ke rasoloon par iman lana

Allah ke farishtoon par iman lana

Allah ki kitaboon par iman lana

Akhrat par iman lana

taqdeer par iman lana

(they may not be in order)

if u deny any of the prophets u will not be Muslim...

The quotations from that book u have quoted are referring to that...

that u are not satisfying the one pillar of iman... =]


I personally can tell you from my experience that please one should not quote one part of a movie or a film or a documentary or a book, and leave the rest... because it all goes in a series...

aise hi hai jaise app aik hissa kitab ka parhein aur judge that wt will be the ending... which is not right =]

~blossom

I am not ocean woh office mein baithe model design kar rahe hoon gein kisi factory ka! lol =P

PS: all this is discussed on MP already... u can see the old threads... =]

Mr Newton first of all we dont hide, everything is there cut clear and open. One can believe and reject its on their own shoulder.
Any information you need, urdu or english could be found www.alislam.org
I am not here to argue, simply stating what I believe.

This has got to be the funniest thing i've ever read.

Spews hatred...that's all Islam really does.

I respect your beliefs. However, what really confuses me if that why do you consider Hazrat Mirz Chulam Ahmed as a prophet when Prophet Muhammad(pbuh) is the last prophet. You can reply to me by pm, because I really don't why you believe there is another prophet after muhammad(pbuh) (and i would like to find out y u believe in what you do n i'll try my best to understand).

"Narrated Sad: Allah's Apostle set out for Tabuk. appointing 'Ali as his deputy (in Medina). 'Ali said, 'Do you want to leave me with the children and women?' The Prophet said, 'Will you not be pleased that you will be to me like Aaron to Moses? But there will be no prophet after me.' (Translation of Sahih Bukhari, Book 59, Military Expeditions led by the Prophet (peace be upon him) (Al-Maghaazi), Volume 5, Number 700)"

"Muhammad is not the father of any of your men, but (he is) the Apostle of God, and the Seal of the Prophets: and God has full knowledge of all things. (The Noble Quran, 33:40)"

TO :Blossom/Baitbari/Captain/Ocean


So do you think that his rank/status is same as the others Prophets(PBUH) in islam. What is proof of his Prophethood?. What you say about seal of Prophethood after prophet Muhammad(PBUH)?

Why there was any need for him to come and what he has done which could not be done if he dont come.?. I dont see any difference in condition of muslims before he came and after he has gone except he created a group of peoples call themselves Ahmadi follower of Mirza Ghulam Ahmad. Should not he suppose to unite umma under one flag as you mentioned but he just gone without doing that.

So he is the Prophet,Imam Mehdi as well as hazzrat Isa(I am Confused?).On one side you believe that Hazrat Isa(PBUH) has been dead and buried in Kashmir after having natural death and on other hand you are saying that Mirza is that person who was promised to come and had same qualities as Hazrat Isa(PBUH).Would you like to mention some of these qualities of Hazrat isa(PBUH) which he also had?

Where did he gathered peoples under one hand? and what reforms/Improvement did he bring in teaching of Prophet Muhammad(PBUH) which according to you muslims have been forgotten?. Did muslim forget that there will be imam Mahdi coming in future and he just came to remind them or did they forget the second coming of hazrat Isa(R.A) ? Hazrat isa Came from sky? What you are talking about?. According to muslims Hazrat Isa(PBUH) had bee sent to guide children of Israel and was given new scripture injil.Holy Quran say clearly

004.157
YUSUFALI: That they said (in boast), "We killed Christ Jesus the son of Mary, the Messenger of Allah";- but they killed him not, nor crucified him, but so it was made to appear to them, and those who differ therein are full of doubts, with no (certain) knowledge, but only conjecture to follow, for of a surety they killed him not:-
PICKTHAL: And because of their saying: We slew the Messiah, Jesus son of Mary, Allah's messenger - they slew him not nor crucified him, but it appeared so unto them; and lo! those who disagree concerning it are in doubt thereof; they have no knowledge thereof save pursuit of a conjecture; they slew him not for certain.
SHAKIR: And their saying: Surely we have killed the Messiah, Isa son of Marium, the messenger of Allah; and they did not kill him nor did they crucify him, but it appeared to them so (like Isa) and most surely those who differ therein are only in a doubt about it; they have no knowledge respecting it, but only follow a conjecture, and they killed him not for sure.

Now i dont know where did you get that Hazrat isa(PBUH) has been dead because of natural death and Buried in Kasmir? Any islamic sources to prove this claim?

about second coming of Hazrat Isa(PBUH)

043.061
YUSUFALI: And (Jesus) shall be a Sign (for the coming of) the Hour (of Judgment): therefore have no doubt about the (Hour), but follow ye Me: this is a Straight Way.
PICKTHAL: And lo! verily there is knowledge of the Hour. So doubt ye not concerning it, but follow Me. This is the right path.
SHAKIR: And most surely it is a knowledge of the hour, therefore have no doubt about it and follow me: this is the right path.

and also muslim believe that imam mahdi will have a war with false maessiah(Dajjal) and his followers and i think mirza did not fought any such wars and ... jesus will take leadership after death of imam mahdi and there will be appearance oj yajuu majooj


So Mirza Ahmad saved muslims from this confusion by claiming himself prophet?. Hazrat isa(R.A) were not dead as mentioned in verse i posted above and will not reborn but will come back to clear misconception of jews and christian about him
now,

I dont have any problems with you to practice what ever you believe but i think you cannot compare urself with other muslims because there is not just a

1)Different view of life or death of Hazrat Isa(PBUH)
2)Interpretation and meaning of Aya Khatam un Nabiyeen…as in Quran and possibility that any Prophet can come after prophet Muhammad(PBUH) whether with or without new laws
3)Truthfulness of Claim of Mirza Ghulam Ahmad as Promised Messiah/Mehdi/Prophet as as indicated in prophecies of Hadhrat Muhammad (PBUH)

The differences mentioned above are theological in nature and important one, but in my opinion all three of them boil down to one core point of conflict which is the finality of prophet hood and all others are secondary issues and stem from the main conflict regarding finality of prophet hood. Now, this I will term as theological dimension of Ahmadiat vs. mainstream Islam conflict. You think it is wrong when someone labell ahmadi non muslim but yours kalifas clearly mentioned kafirs to those who are actually muslims and qadyanis think that they are very much same as other muslims but Bashir Ahmed Sahib sums up by saying that,
"our prayers are different from non ahmadis, we are not allowed to marry our girls to them, we are forbidden to participate in the funerals of non ahmadis; so what is there that we can do together? There are only two types of relations: one religious and other worldly; religious relations govern the prayers, while worldly relations are heavily dependent on matrimony; so both of them are forbidden with non ahmadis now if one says why we say salam to non ahmadis, then I will say that it is proven from Ahadiths that Prophet Muhammad ( P.B.U.H) used to return salutations of Jews. But promised masiah never said salam to bitter rivals nor saying of salam to them is allowed. So, we can see that promised masiah has made us separate from others and there is not a single relation which is specific with Muslims and then is not forbidden to us. [Ref: Kalmatul Fazl reported in Review of Religions. No.3, Vol. 14, page 169].
I draw your attention to the fact, after establishing distinctiveness of Ahmadis from the writings of your own writers, that who has the right to be called Muslims. Old community who called themselves Muslims from the time of Prophet Muhammad ( P.B.U.H) till the start of 20th century, or the one that is different from the previous one.


Yes if you deny prophet u will not be muslim but What if someone is false and self proclaimed Prophet?. What should we call those who believe in such false prophets?. I think what i have quoted clearly point out the view of yours Kalifas. That is just one statement i have mentioned in my posts and there are many if you want i can post it here and i am sorry but i cannot post the whole books. If you interested you can read the book and clarify if there is something wrong which i quoted. Prophet Muhammad (PBUH) left this world in 632 A.D and the people following him are known as Muslims. Though, we Muslims believe in the religious continuity of our faith right from the first Prophet Adam through Prophets Moses(PBUH), Jesus(PBUH) and so on till Prophet Muhammad ( P.B.U.H), yet this community started calling itself Muslims and called its religion as Islam. We did not say that we are Jews or Christians, although if we claim the same spiritual continuity, it seems that we should be. But we did not and the reason is that we are different; different because of perhaps the degradation of previous people of book, and we claim that we are right. Even the position of right and wrong does not have any relevance here and the simple thing is that we are different. To approach someone as Jew or Christian while being the follower of religion Islam would be insult to those who are Jews or Christians and would be like encroaching on their fundamental human rights and religious space and will be total stupidity. And here it does not matter at all whether we the Muslims are true followers of Jesus or Moses.

In the same way I believe that Ahmadis are different from us. Again there is no question whose position is right or wrong; the thing is that there is such a difference at core fundamental level that all the apparent similarities do not matter at all. Now, we non Ahmadis consider that from the death of Prophet Muhammad ( PBUH) in 632 A.D. till almost the start of 20th century (almost thirteen centuries), we called ourselves Muslims and our religion Islam. Now at the beginning of 20th century a person comes and tells us that he is Prophet (his being right or wrong does not matter), and his followers still want to claim Islam as their religion. Question here is; who has the right to the title of calling themselves Muslims, and their religion Islam. Old community which is in overwhelming majority with thirteen century of use of the title or the new one whose members on whatever bases are not accepted as their own by the old community. Remember the democratic rule. One can imagine who will be the winner, if such a case goes in any court of any country in the world.

To call Qadyaaniz part of us will be deceiving all especially those non Muslims whom they approach for preaching, and would be far below the level of integrity, justice and fair play (some of the golden rules of all religions irrespective of their being divinely inspired or man made).

You sure it's page 35?

You know if you read a bit further you might find the answer to your objection as well

Insha_ji i visited that site and saw the picture of the tomb...and all i wanted to know why did Jesus leave the Jews and traveled all the way to India? and what did he do there?

Thanks.

What battle did he get scared in? Khyber? Badr? Uhud? Khandaq? Look up who got scared and ran away from these battles that I named. Moreover, if he is into a cave please tell me which Cave is he in? I would love to go meet him. Unfortunately you missed the meaing of 'occultation' in English 101.

If a person is in a cave then it means he is physically existing to the naked eye and not in occultation. Lastly, read fully rather than quoting selective extracts.



It is so unfortunate that the nasibis still exist amongst us breeding their hatred as pure as the times of Yazeed and Co. The text you have quote is selective and from an anti Shia website called ansar.org. It is so interesting to see how people will believe anything that is written against the Shias to degrade them just like the people of Syria did against Imam Ali [a] after seeing the shirt of Uthman.

Yes it is from the books of the Shia Scholars but at least have the audacity to check the full reference to it rather than being a parrot and doing a copy paste job from a website which is there to attack the Shias.

Had you taken your time and looked up the full reference and read through it then you would have seen how stupid it would have made you look. Jumping on the bandwagon is good but make sure you know what you are jumping for because if you do not then you look like a fool.

Firstly here is the link to the full book, scroll down to 173. But let me only quote the part you stated and what you left out [red is what you quoted, blue is what you left out]:

فنقول ان السبب في غيبة الامام عليه السلام اخافة الظالمين له وطلبهم سفك دمه واعلام الله انه متى ابدى شخصه لهم قتلوه ومتى قدروا عليه اهلكوه فحصل ممنوعا من التصرف فيما جعل إليه من شرع الاسلام وهذه الامور التي هي مردودة إليه ومعول في تدبيرها عليه فانما يلزمه القيام بها بشرط وجود التمكن والقدرة وعدم المنع والحيلولة وازالة المخافة على النفس والمهجة فمتى لم يكن ذلك فالتقية واجبة والغيبة عند الاسباب الملجئة إليها لازمة لأن التحرز من المضار واجب عقلا وسمعا وقد استتر النبي صلى الله عليه واله في غار حراء ولم يكن لذلك سبب غير المخافة من الاعداء فإن قال السائل ان استتار النبي عليه السلام كان مقدارا يسيرا لم يمتد به الزمان وغيبة صاحبكم قد تطاولت بها الاعوام قيل له ليس القصر والطول في الزمان يفرق في هذا المكان لأن الغيبتين جميعا سببهما واحد وهما المخافة من الاعداء فهما في الحكم سواء وإنما قصر زمان احداها لقصر مدة المخافة فيها وطول زمان الاخرى لطول زمان

The blue part actually goes on to state that the Prophet [p] himself took refuge in the cave during the Hijra and also talks about the Hudiybiyyah treaty between the Muslims and the Kuffar of Mecca as to how the revelation came to the Prophet [p] to make peace with the Kuffar highlighting how because of his life being in danger there was guidance from Allah.

Then on the next page 174 again it gives examples as to how Prophet Musa [a] fled his people when fear entered his heart and the author relates that to the life of the Mahdi [aj] and says he took refuge in the cave and went into occultation because of the fear that surrounded his life. And it was the will of Allah to put him into occultation to safeguard His last Hujjah.

The rest of the text following what I have quoted above is actually regarding the people who doubt his occultation and mock the idea of it. The author gives proofs from the Quran and the Hadith to show how occultation was relevant due to the factors around the life of the Mahdi [aj].

So now you see how selective was your quote. I would greatly suggest stop being a tool of copy and pasting rather try and read before quoting selective texts. It shows nothing but your ignorance!

If you don't mind me answering.
According to Ahmadi belief, Jesus survived the crucification. Now having survived, East was the only logical way for him (as) to go for several reasons. One would be that going the other way would lead him into the heart of those allied against him. Staying wasn't safe either. Also noting that some of the Lost Tribes of Israel had reached India at that point and had accepted Buddhism meant that for Jesus (as) to continue his mission. Now a lot of scholars have found some unique characteristics between the Buddhism of the area and Christianity. Many of those scholars believed that Jesus (as) went to India in the first 30 years of his life and studied Buddhist scripts; however, if those Jews who were now Buddhists were there and the Prophet Jesus (as) did come to them then they changed their religion to accommodate what Jesus (as) preached.

While there he became known as Yuz Asaf who is recorded as a Buddhist Saint, and enlightened one.




While we're remembering, Remember the Battle of Badr? After the death of the Holy Prophet Mohammad (saw), Sunni Muslims and Shia Muslims arose. Then further and further divisions arose. Even the Holy Prophet (saw) foretold these splits and predicted that all of these Jamaat's would be wrong save one. These splits indicate pluralism...communities within a community you could say

Depend you are asking page of book or PDF page

PDF view of book from Ahmadi website
http://www.alislam.org/library/books/Truth...t-the-Split.pdf

Page 73/430 which is 59 if you look at the top of the page

Oh man, this is the one of the best posts on MP since 2006. Someone finally trying his best to quote some books and big names here and there - though I won’t be surprised if you didn’t even know how to pronounce the word of the scholars and books. I was hoping you would at least get something directly off a Shia website you know, instead of something off ansar.org a website primarily made to defame and degrade Shias. But now that you've been on ansar.org I think you should also check out www.answering-ansar.org .

I still don't see which battle you were on about, that in the 'heat of the battle' he hid in a cave. Hiding in a cave reminds me how the Prophet (Pbuh) "hid" in the cave during Hijrah due to "fear" of enemies, doesn't it? He was afraid of being killed wasn’t he? You make it sound like a negative connotation as if he was scared like some of the early companions used to be scared in the battles like Hunain and that he had to run away and hide because he was too scared to fight for himself.

As you are very well aware that all of the 11 Shia Imams were killed by the following people in order: Ibn Muljim, Caliph Muawiyah, Caliph Yazeed, Caliph Waleed, Caliph Hisham, Caliph Mansoor, Caliph Haroon, Caliph Mamoon, Caliph Mutasam, Caliph Mu'taz and Caliph Mutamid. Suppose you have some kids playing street hockey in the night and then after the game they see a street light and just for the heck of it they whip the ball at the light and break it and run away. The city comes next day and replaces the light. The kids do the same thing the next day and the city government replaces the light again. The kids keep doing this and after 11 tries the city replaces the light but this time puts a cage on top of it so the ball can't hit the light. The city authorities did it out of 'fear' that if we don't put a cage they will break the light again. When you have 11 Imams who had been killed, the prophecy as narrated by the Sunni books as well needs to be fulfilled at the end of the day. If he died there won’t be a 12th Imam – the narrations don’t state that he will die and come back. If he didn't and the prophecy that he is going to fill the earth with justice and peace would have been fulfilled at that time if Allah (swt) wanted and the world probably would have been over by now but obviously Allah (swt) didn't want it to go that way. If he had not gone into Ghaibat he would have been killed like the rest of the Imams and as his house was already under strict watch and monitoring because of the caliph, which is why he went into Ghaibat by the will of Allah (swt) but still present on earth since there is always a Hujjat of Allah (swt) present on earth - at all times.

If you want a good grasp of the Shia view on the occultation, I suggest you skim through this: http://www.al-islam.org/occultation_12imam/4.htm#3


So do you any more differences between Shias and Sunnis that you would like to share? Please don't use Haq Chaar Yaar this time. . .

So according to you there is no difference between different sects within islam and Ahmadis or Do you think that they are also sect within islam?.I am sorry but we cannot say community within community here because question is about finality of Prophethood thats what make difference between Ahmadi and others sect witin islam

1. Discrepancies are found even within Sunni Muslims.

• Ahmad Deedat
• Mohmmad Sheikh

2. Key word is interpretation and the fact that the door to the stance we take is a viable one.
3. Everything is out there for you, look at it but while trying to do also try to do it without bias.

Brother u_ahmad share your point of view about Ahmdi and Mirza Ghulam Ahmad and aslo share any unbiased information you have got plus view od ahmad dedat and Mohammad sheikh so that i can see what is out there

No I'm saying there are many differences within the sects of Islam themselves. Ahmadiyyat has been around for 100+ years but only since the 70's have Ahmadi's been called non-muslims. There's a reason for that and it has less to do with religion and more to do with politics.



Ahmad Deedat wrote a book: http://www.amazon.com/Crucifixion-CRUCIFIC...t/dp/B0007C0SIA
Mohamamd Sheikh's videos have been uploaded on youtube. Same with many of Ahmad Deedat's tapes



Now read the whole thought out.

Brother i would like to know your defination of ISLAM. why dont you share in detail what was that reasons anD how it was linked with politics rather than religon and what are thE views of different sects of islam about Mirza Ghulam Ahmad

yes but what did he said in his book about death of hazrat Isa(PBUH) you can share us if you know or ever read and i have read many pages of this book not the Pdf versian but i lost interest after few pages but you can quote any page if you interested and What ahmadiz scholar or KALIFAS think of Non Ahmadi?

Dude how about you guys just make a thread for MUSLIMS vs. AHMADIYA MUSLIMS instead of arguing in here!!!
PLEASE

I don't want mods to screw this thread over.

We made a treaty:

-We won't do this crap that we're doing right now
-They'll post the thread

plz dont ruin the chance

- The "Sunni":

The followers of Abu, called "Sunni" because they accept the "sunnas", the oral traditions and interpretations of the Koran after Muhammad's death, called the "sunnas", and later the "Hadiths".

They are usually more liberal.

They belief the "caliph" ("successor" of Muhammad) should always be elected, not conferred by heredity. They claim they are the true followers of the faith, and until 1959 they refuse to recognize the Shiites as true Muslims. They believe in "predestination".

During the Ottoman Turks, the Caliphs were called "Sultans".


2- The "Shiite":

The "Shiite ("partisans"), are the followers of Ali, more orthodox and militant, mainly in Iran, Iraq, and Palestine. In 656, Ali and Fatima's son Hussein led a fight against the Sunnis. Hussein was torture and beheaded, and today the Shiites of Iran honor the memory of Hussein's death with an annual procession in which marches in a frenzied demonstration beat and whip themselves with chains and branches.

The "Iman" and "Mahdi" (Messhiah):
Shiites created the office of the "Imam" ("leader" or "guide"), who were infallible, one for each generation, the only source of religious instruction and guidance, and all in direct descendence of Ali. There were 12 Imams since Ali; the last one, the 12th, went into hiding in 940, and he will emerge later to rule the world as "Mahdi" ("Messiah"). For this reason they are also called the "Imamites" or "Twelvers"

The "Wahhabi":

A small group founded by al-Wahhab in the eighteenth century, but it was the primary force in the creation of the state of Saudi Arabia in 1932, the country of the cities of Mecca and Medina, and from them, the Wahhabi have influenced Muslims throughout the world who go into the pilgrimage to Mecca.

They are the Puritans of the Muslims, with the most strict, severely enforced moral standard of conduct, and their call for a pure Islam regulated by a literal interpretation of the Koran.

For them, it is a polytheism to visit the graves of the saints, and they are against observance of the feast of the Birth of the Prophet... and they discourage such Western innovations as cinema and dancing.


The Sufi ("mystic", "woolen robes"):

It is a mystic group responsible for large scale conversion of Hindus and Africans into Islam.

One founder was Ahmad al-Qadiana, who lived in Cairo in the eighth century and claimed to be an incarnation of Allah.

The "Whirling Derisshes":

The greatest of the Sufi poets is "Meluana Celadin Rumi" (1207-73), from Turkey, whose work, "Masvani", is considered second only to the Koran, and it was Rumi who advocated and influenced the development of the "whirling dervishes", twirl dancing around the master, as a means of achieving oneness with God... it requires 1,001 hours to master the dance, once secret, now performed openly.

They used to retreat to the desert where they live as wandering ascetics, abstaining from all worldly pleasures and dressing in woolen robes, "sufis"... and there are several "orders", like the Christian monastic orders.

Their "primary goal", is to rid the souls of self-love and replace it with God-love. The "ego" aspect of human nature must be eradicated if the path of salvation is to be achieved.

The "Sufi Way", has 7 stages: Repentance, abstinence from worldly pleasures, detachment or isolation from the world, solitude, poverty, patience, and self-surrender to God. The 7-path program is completed when "ego" leaves and "divine love" enters the human soul.

The "Sufi Meditation", prescribes for concentration to touch 5 centers of the body: The heart; then the spirit center found in the heart; then the secret center between the heart and the spirit center; then the forehead, seat of the mysteries; and finally the brain, the deeply hidden source of mystery.

"Worship practices" are meditating, praying with songs and dances, gyrating movements of the body... "a master" will lead the devout to mystical trances... illumination comes in the form of ecstatic dancing, as may be practiced by the "whirling dervishes". The wild dancing represents the movements of the planets... and when the dancer collapses in a trance, enters into God.

Eventually the dervish becomes a "perfect man" who can teach others God's truth.

Among the Sufis, the most holy men become saints and their tombs become shrines to which pilgrims go to receive divine blessings.

The modern "work" of Gurdjieff and Ouspensky, to know "thyself", is mostly based in Sufi Mysticism, even with the "Whirling dervish-type dances".


The "Ismailis":

In the eight century a group of Shiites created a division on the account of who would be the rightful seventh Imam at the death of the sixth Imam who had 2 sons: They followed the older brother, Ismail, who died as a child, and so, they are called the "Ismailis" or "Seveners".

They are in parts of India, Egypt, and the rulers of Syria, Palestine, Mesopotamia, and Bahrain.

They believe that incarnations of God in the form of new Imams will continue throughout time

There are different groups of Ismailis:

The "Ismaili Druze"
About 700,000, believe that the Fatimid leader al-Hakim of Egypt was God. They meet on Thursdays, instead of Fridays, and they have monogamous marriages. They are in Lebanon, Syria, and Israel, trying to have an independent state.

The Ismaili "Hashshashin" or "Assassins", used the drug hashish to get exited, and became famous for their practice of seizing Crusader forts and assassinating Christians. Today, known as "Khojas" or "Mawlas" in Bombay, India, and parts of Iran, Syria, and Zanzibar."


P.S I dont know how much of this is true or not, i just thought it was interesting so i am posting it also i am not trying to offend anyone so dont come bashing at me.....

Resource: http://www.religion-cults.com/Islam/islam5...%20%22Assassins

Dear Waqas you actually left Qadyaniz for anther thread which is not fair to them and i think they have felt it . What hard it was to list their name with your topic title i.e List of all sunni/shia/wahabai/qadyani differences and Similarities

We are not talkink crap but trying to clear our misconception from follower of Mirza ghulam Ahmad after having constructive argument with them. Dont worry your topic will get locked anny way,by sunni shia or wahabi differences if not by differences of qadyani and non qadyani..Reason is peoples will not agree with false differences you will try to list for another sect and will try to defend it and argument will create from this and your topic will get locked...Take advantages of this oppurtunity and list as much differences as you can think off before the topic get locked

We do believe in Ahazoor SAW as last prophet, but as last prophet with last religion, Islam and last book, the holy Quran... i.e. he is given the seal of prophets with the seal of teachings. No better teaching than Islam and Quran can now come to the world for mankind. However, a prophet under his teachings can come... as i said just like status of hadhrat isa AS is of a prophet on whose people believe in.. then if someone who is supposed to come similar to him should be a prophet too...

(i have tried to summarize it, as insha ji said that u can see more from the website.. i think thats better =])

MN:




I have answered this part in Jannat's question.. I hope that will suffice?


we all know why he was needed... if a doctor comes to a town and tries to cure the sick, but the people of that town dont let him, then will it still be dr's fault? no its the people's fault.. =]

rest can again be read in our website... those who believed in him stayed and are staying united, those who didnt are tearing each other apart...



when hadhrat isa AS will come wont people be confused? that he was the prophet now he is imam mehdi? and he was the prophet for that time, specially and specifically wt Christians believed in... so what is he doing here now curing Muslim ummah? that sound more confusing than wt i said... to me at least... =]

Qualities can be read in the read on our site again... if u want i can copy paste here? but i prefer if u read them from there...



i really dont want to read all that... because the pillars of iman are what each and every Muslim believes in, dont you believe in them?
app baat aur taraf le ke ja rahe hein... again same as wt every that person does who doesnt want to agree but wants to find more flaws... that oh but then ahmadis dont believe this and that... this is not the issue here.. the issue was the quotation u quoted... and i think i replied to u there...

ya app manein na maien its upto you.. =]

when i talk abt those pillars of iman, i believe in them whole heartedly.. small differences are even there among people of same sect... so really no issue there MN..

you are now hitting our faith instead of understanding the differences, so rather of me going on about saying wt our jammat did or is doing, if u really want to know just see our website... no point arguing... each and every word written on alislam.org is what i believe in...

its like i hit on non ahmadi Muslims and mock them on their belief of returning of Hadhrat Isa...

kon si qayamat ka intezar kar rahe hein app log? abhi aur qayamat rehti hai kya? look around its the doomsday on earth every where...

woh rehmatoon wala khuda abhi bhi nahi bheij raha hadhrat isa ko toh when will he?

or is it because he came and those who denied are suffering?

LOL. The battle of Badr has already been addressed by Allah (SWT) and Prophet Muhammad (SAAS) so will you kindly stop harping on an issue that doesn't have anything to do with the topic, and that has been addressed by the likes of the Prophet himself. I don't see the reason to bring that up.

I doubt you can meet Imam Mahdi. Because according to your beliefs, his enemies weren't able to find him either. You know, he's chillin, watching over us and waiting for the right time to show up. Of course this is the shia belief. Sunnis don't believe in the occultation. I thought being a shia you would understand what occultation means.

This is a good question Desiplease. If you read bible and holy quran you will come to a conclusion that Hazret Isa (as) was sent to the lost tribes of israliets. In holy quran it is said "Nabi ila bani israel". There were total of 12 tribes and only 2 were present where Jesus was actual was. In order to fullfill his mission he had to go and gather all the other tribes. Since they were scatterd around along afghanistan, kashmir, india side he travled along those areas and found the remaining of the tribes. So this is what Jesus was doing in india and kashmir area.

Well I heard that Dr was mentally Ill himself and tell me how did he die?

Furthermore tell us about "Rabwa"?

There are two graveyards there and what are the criteria of each graveyard?

How much each Qadiyani have to pay out of their income to community?

Why Qadiyani people give so many incentives to convert people in shape of Money, Support in career and other materialistic?

Why they are so ashamed of letting people know they are Qadiyani?





Ali would you mind enlightening us about these...