OK I wont argue about Islam (but if u want me to I will) but peoples views on the origin of religions would be appreciated.


In a past thread someone said:

"Sikhs believe in one God. This concept of one God was introduced in India by Islam. Gurunanak liked this idea, and incorporated it in his new religion."

Wrong. The vedic ideas (Rik Veda) had this first. These vedic ideas were present all round the world in ancient times (eg ancient greek). Vedic ideas also influenced the start of Judaism. From Judaism came Christianity, and also Islam later.

"Does this mean they are influenced by them? If they are influenced by them then they are not divine religions. Rather they could be called a next step in evolution of religions."

No not really. Would you find a religion in the west spring up with the concept of karma? No. Or a eastern one with resurrection? No. It does not suggest they are not divine, it just suggests that there are trends on some religions. If there was a faith before those of Vedic times (which Arya Samajas have tried to create) it would indeed be rather similar to Sikhism.

"A one line statement does not prove anything."

No but the book I told you does.

"Because all of them their teachings incorporated in Sikhism. They don't particularly venerate Gurnunanak."

There is no tibetan buddhist influence on Guru Nanak at all. He was opposed to the concept of atheism. The only similarity between Islam and Sikhism is a belief in one god. This is also present in Vedic beliefs. Hence it is unlikely this idea was "taken" from Islam at all.

Dont forget that there are plenty of stories in the Quran that bear remarkable resemblence to those in the Bible, Torah and Talmud (not sure about the last one actually).

"So why do you eat and drink?"

To survive. Eventually Ill try and cut out all the things I enjoy for pleasure rather than survival, eg soft drinks, choccies, etc. This may seem extreme to some, but attatchment to wordly things no doubt cause one to temporarily forget God. Guru Nanak said that one should live the life of a householder (ie family) but remain detattched with attatchment only to God.

"I don't understand you making distinction between eastern and western religions. You are talking as if the religion is more of a cultural thing."

No, I am saying that there is a trend that in eastern religions there is a concept of enlightenment, and there is not in western religions. This is a fact. This is why those from western religions (Islam, Xtainity, Judaism) will not understand the concept of enlightenment and see it as fake, or simply "going psycho". Have you ever done reading/understanding into such a concept of Jeevan Mukta?

Religion and culture are very much seperate. In Sikhism Punjabi culture has had a bad influence on Sikhism and has changed it to an extent from its original form - sexism, casteism (jattism etc) and bhangra are all things often seen in modern Sikh (usually non religious) families which are a product of Punjabi culture rather than Sikh teaching, which in its scriptures condemns such things.

Same goes for Sunni Islam really. Many argue that a few of the present teachings in Sunni-type Islam are a byproduct of Arabic culture rather than Islam, hence the difference between Sufis (perhaps more divorced from Arabic culture), Shias and Sunnis.

BTW im not asking anyone to "believe" my views. Im just asking you to think.

i am thinking:angry
:zzz

Islam is the only religion that Acknowledges christianity and judaism. Islam accepts their prophets. Thats why The Quran is called. 'The Last revelation' .

:huh :huh :huh (stunned silence...waiting for the 'BUT'......)

Hey. I am hypocrite. I can withstand myself saying things about Islam, but not some Sardar!

Hey is this the bit when you two kiss and hug etc etc and MAKE UP?

Just wondering :sarc

if im "some sardar" then you are "some mozelman" lol....

islam is not "the last revalation".

islam acknowledges the bible and torah as gods word, and claims gods word cannot be changed elsewhere. yet mozelmans claim the bible has been corrupted. so either hte quran is corrupt also, or there was no point of islam at all because the bible was already gods word

oh and its unlikely any of the bible (or possibly the quran) was directly gods word anyway. ezekiel had epilepsy and his "revalations" were actually epileptic fits. the same could even apply for the muslim prophet.

sikhism is the only religion which says all god related religions are an eventual path to god even if some are waaaaay longer than others. there is no eternal hellfire, cruel sadistic god, 1000 elephant gods, "son of god" or 72 virgins either.

When there are atleast 12 different versions of the Bible floating around, THAT is what the muslims refer to as 'corrupted'. Because you dont know WHICH one is the authentical bible. Besides, Islam's prophet has already been prophecized in The Bible itself.

The Quran on the other hand has NEVER changed a LETTER in ANY part of the world. Yes, translations differ, but the BASIC core ARABIC quran has NEVER changed. Pick up any two copies from any part of the world, they will check out to the same.

About the Quran being gods word, well. I know I am putting the axe on my own feet here..... alas.. sigh... What is unexplainable is The Prophet didnt know how to write or read, I maybe wrong, I am not the expert here, but as far as my understanding goes, it is truly a remarkable, legible feat for ANY man, to conjure up a book like the Quran, and that also 1400 years ago.

Christianity is acknowledged in the Quran, Jesus is acknowledged in the Quran. And Islam is the ONLY religion that pays a LOT of respect to EACH and every Prophet to have traversed earth. And the Quran states what no other book states.... That IT is the LAST revelation. After this point on, you all are on your own.

By LuXoR:

Kii perablam (masla) aye! Oye kutt tay nai khani oye!? (j/k) Tenu pata nahin main kown aan!? I told you before: REFRAIN from idle chit chat, this Section is meant for serious discussions only. Shukran

Don't you think it's quite ironic that so many of Qur'aans prophecies are coming true which apparently seemed incredible at first! Islam is the result of a symbiosis between Iman and Intelect, or Religion and Science.

Personally speaking i am ever amazed at its subliminal messages, which are constantly being discovered, and ironically by western "atheistic" scientists! There are numerous revelations in the Qur'an in regards to the Universe that have been revealed to us 1400 years ago, but have been officially proven right or so-called "newly discovered" in the late 1990's.

Many lingusitics from all ethnic backgrounds and fields agree that the Arabic in the Qur'an is trulely unique and could not have been the product of mankind. Sure it must sound ridiculous to you right now, but the POWER of qur'anic words is just fascinating! Not imitable by ANY other 'book'! Spirituality in islam comes in many forms and shapes, it is false to say that muslims do not 'meditate', for we do. Our meditation consists of reciting thr Qur'aan and Namaz (Prayer)...many muslims will tell you it is an enlightening stage, one which grants the soul, body, and mind total peace. Not describable.

[quote]Originally posted by KS

In a past thread someone said:

\"Sikhs believe in one God. This concept of one God was introduced in India by Islam. Gurunanak liked this idea, and incorporated it in his new religion.\"

Wrong. The vedic ideas (Rik Veda) had this first. These vedic ideas were present all round the world in ancient times (eg ancient greek). Vedic ideas also influenced the start of Judaism. From Judaism came Christianity, and also Islam later.

[/quote]

Ok here's something i've come across on a site about Sikhism, i will quote certain areas and provide you with the link so you can read for yourself!!

>His father Mehta Kalian Das was an accountant in the employment of the local Muslim authorities. From an early age Guru Nanak made friends with both Hindu and Muslim children and was very inquisitive about the meaning of life.<

Ok so here we establish that he was brought up with Muslims from an early age!

>He was then schooled in the study of Muslim literature and learned Persian and Arabic.

Guru Nanak would spend long hours absorbed in meditation and in religious discussions with Muslim and Hindu holy men who lived in the forests surrounding the village.

Guru Nanak was persuaded by his parents to take a job as an accountant in charge of the stores of the Muslim governor of Sultanpur Daulat Khan Lodi. Guru Nanak agreed and was joined by his family and an old Muslim childhood friend Mardana, a musician by profession. Guru Nanak would work during the days, but early in the mornings and late at nights, he would meditate and sing hymns accompanied by Mardana on the rabab ( a string instrument). These sessions attracted a lot of attention and many people started joining the two. <

So still in the company of Muslims and correct me if i'm wrong but the following quote from Guru Nanak sounds very similar to verses in the Quran, yes its different words but more or less the same!!

>"There is but One God, His name is Truth, He is the Creator, He fears none, he is without hate, He never dies, He is beyond the cycle of births and death, He is self illuminated, He is realized by the kindness of the True Guru. He was True in the beginning, He was True when the ages commenced and has ever been True, He is also True now." (Japji) <

Ok then there was the incident when he disappeared for three days and when he came back what does he say?

>"Let God's grace be the mosque, and devotion the prayer mat. Let the Quran be the good conduct. Let modesty be compassion, good manners fasting, you should be a Muslim the like of this. Let good deeds be your Kaaba and truth be your mentor. Your Kalma be your creed and prayer, God would then vindicate your honour." (Majh) <

And you're telling me he was'nt influenced by Islam? You might wanna check your crystal ball matey!! :sarc

and the Link http://www.sikhs.org/guru1.htm

"When there are atleast 12 different versions of the Bible floating around, THAT is what the muslims refer to as 'corrupted'. Because you dont know WHICH one is the authentical bible. Besides, Islam's prophet has already been prophecized in The Bible itself."

yes i know that, but islam regards the bible as gods word. yes?

the koran says that gods word cannot be changed/corrupted. yes?

so therefore either a) the bible is still gods word and therefore "people of the book" are both muslims and christians or the quran is corrupted as the bible is.

"The Quran on the other hand has NEVER changed a LETTER in ANY part of the world."

but there are no original qurans from mohammed time. they all emerged a while after. i remember reading a hadith which admitted that some had been lost, plus there is hte verse called the "stoning".

What is unexplainable is The Prophet didnt know how to write or read, it is truly a remarkable, legible feat for ANY man, to conjure up a book like the Quran, and that also 1400 years ago."

i have also read hadiths that state teh prophet wrote something. people who believe in the number 19 theory also say mohammed could read and write. plus, they remove a section of the quran.

i wouldnt say the quran is any more amazing then the bible, guru granth sahib, or vedas.

"Christianity is acknowledged in the Quran, Jesus is acknowledged in the Quran. And Islam is the ONLY religion that pays a LOT of respect to EACH and every Prophet to have traversed earth. And the Quran states what no other book states.... That IT is the LAST revelation. After this point on, you all are on your own."

nope, sikhism does the same. and neither does it self proclaim that all its followers, simply by being a muslim, go to paradise and all others burn in hellfire.

ORIGINALLY POSTED BY KS
(Note from LuXoR: pls do not include such long passages in your response, break them down, for they slow the uploading time of threads. Also, do not quote entire passages, cut them short!)
----------------------------------------------------------------------------------
"Don't you think it's quite ironic that so many of Qur'aans prophecies are coming true which apparently seemed incredible at first! Islam is the result of a symbiosis between Iman and Intelect, or Religion and Science."

please give some examples.

"Personally speaking i am ever amazed at its subliminal messages, which are constantly being discovered, and ironically by western "atheistic" scientists!."

examples? your not going to use the big bang quotes or the evolution references are u.....

"Many lingusitics from all ethnic backgrounds and fields agree that the Arabic in the Qur'an is trulely unique and could not have been the product of mankind. Spirituality in islam comes in many forms and shapes, it is false to say that muslims do not 'meditate', for we do."

what about the satanic verses and the stoning verse? i know many people who dont see the quran as particularly special. to be honest i didnt read all of it, i got about 3/4 way but the pickethall translation was written in rather a monotonous style. its just another path to god - definately not the only path.

seriously man, u shud try meditation. just TRY. it wont do u any harm. i tried to ask a christian and he said no its from satan (shatan) LOL

[quote]Originally posted by KS
but islam regards the bible as gods word. yes? the koran says that gods word cannot be changed/corrupted. yes?

so therefore either a) the bible is still gods word and therefore \"people of the book\" are both muslims and christians or the quran is corrupted as the bible is.[/quote]
*sigh. You didn't do your homework right.

In islam, the Jews and the Christians ARE referred to as the \"people of the book\" that means that they HAD received the word of God, BUT, as time passed by their teaching became corrupted as they incorporated changes into the books. Both Christains and Jews acknowledge that their Book is not preserved in its original Revelation. THEREFORE, Allah send the FINAL revelation. Simply put, Old Testament (jewsh) got corrupted, New testament (christian) was sent, this got corrupted, Quran (islamic) was sent, and is TO THIS DAY preserved in its pure and original form as was revealed to Muhammad (saws) 1400 years ago. The Qur'an DID exist during the time of the Prophet (it very individual surahs or 'chapters' just not binded in a book). What's up with your stoning verses, can you please elaborate as to what you are trying to refer to exactly?

[quote]i wouldnt say the quran is any more amazing then the bible, guru granth sahib, or vedas.[/quote]
Ok. But do u acknowledge that SCIENTISTS and LINGUSITICS (muslim as well as non-muslim!) perceive the Qur'an as extra-ordinary? Have you had the same education and experience in critical thinking, judgemental skills, and knowledge as they who are authorities in their fields?

[quote]neither does it [sikhism] self proclaim that all its followers, simply by being a muslim, go to paradise and all others burn in hellfire.[/quote]
Wrong. This is a Concept in the Bible, one which christians believe in, but NOT muslims. We believe that Paradise is a priority to righteous muslims (which btw does not mean that muslims who did bad wont be punished!) but since Allah is All-Merciful, he can and WILL forgive non-muslims (ahle kitaab) as well and grant them paradise.

Allah says in the Noble Qur'aan, 'Oh My Slaves! Do not despair. Verily Allah will forgive all sins.'

In one Hadith, Muahmmad (saws) is reported to have said, 'If a person has sins equivalent to the foams of the sea and pebbles on a desert, Allah's mercy is so encompassing that He will forgive every sin.' In another narration, it is mentioned that Allah will speak secretly to one of His slaves on the day of Qiyaamat and remind him of all his sins. After the person will confess his sins, Allah will say to him, 'I concealed your faults in the world, today too, I will conceal your faults. Go in Jannah, I have forgiven you.'

The above mentioned are few of many Ahaadith explaining the extent of Allah's Mercy. However, Allah says, 'Verily Allah will not forgive a person who ascribe partners (commit Shirk) with Him.' The only sin that is unforgivable is Kufr (disbelief) and Shirk (ascribing partners)

Shirk is self-explanatory, Kufr as in disbelief refers to those who did not acknowledge the Oneness of God.

[quote]Originally posted by KS
please give some examples. (about things the quran disclosed centuries ago)[/quote]
In the Middle Ages, most people believed that the sun moved while the moon was standstill. But according to the verse of the Glorious Holy Quran, both the sun and the moon have their orbit and the sun is in the center of the universe where the planets transverse around. These verses revealed 1400 years ago before major scientists around the world established this fact.

Here are some of the verses given in the Quran:

1.) "Allah is He Who raised the heavens without any pillars that ye can see; then He established Himself on the Throne; He has subjected the sun and the moon! Each one runs (its course) for a term appointed. He doth regulate all affairs, explaining the signs in detail, that ye may believe with certainty in the meeting with your Lord. Surah 13 (Ar-Ra'd), Verse 2.

2.) "He(Allah) created the heavens and the earth in true (proportions): He makes the Night overlap the Day, and the Day overlap the Night: He has subjected the sun and the moon (to His law): each one follows a course for a time appointed. Is not He the Exalted in Power - He Who forgives again and again?" Surah 39 (Az-Zumar), Verse 5.

3.) "And the Moon,- We have measured for her stations (to traverse) till she returns like the old (and withered) lower part of a date-stalk." Surah 36 (Yaseen), Verse 39.

4.) "It is not permitted to the Sun to catch up the Moon, nor can the Night outstrip the Day: each (just) swims along in (its own) orbit (according to Law)." "Surah 36 (Yaseen), Verse 40.

----------------------------------------
Just recently an advanced satellite showed the outerskirts of our universe. Scientists call this space as "the red rose" (I will post a photograph taken from the satellite, you can also check this in scientific journals, libraries as well as online, I am sure). This has been stated in the Qur'aan more than 14 centuries ago!

Refer to Surah ar-Rahman
37. When the sky is torn apart, so it was (like) a red rose, like ointment
38. Then which of the favours of your Lord will you deny?
---------------------------------------
These are only few of many examples.

Ks, you said: ""what about the satanic verses and the stoning verse? i know many people who dont see the quran as particularly special."" Those are ordinary people whose profession is inelligble of giving credible judgements. :sarc You seem to have an obsession with "satanic verses" LOL, please explain what u're trying to say, i do not understand?

You also said: ""to be honest i didnt read all of it, i got about 3/4 way but the pickethall translation was written in rather a monotonous style. its just another path to god - definately not the only path."" As said before, Allah is All-merciful he can and will forgive those non-muslims he grants mercy. You won't gain much from readin an english translation of the Quran, for there is NO concrete translation available. The Qur'an cannot be straightforwardly translated into human language, but there exists only the "in about" translation of the Quran. That is why it is still in its pure shape and every muslim is supposed to learn the Qur'an in ARABIC, because it has a different spiritual effect on you, and it enables you to experience God's true words on your tongue.

[quote]seriously man, u shud try meditation. just TRY. it wont do u any harm. i tried to ask a christian and he said no its from satan (shatan) LOL[/quote]
What does the christian have to do with this topic at hand, which is about ISLAM and MUSLIMS? I told you before, meditation exists in islam, as by reciting the Qur'an and Namaz (Prayer)...has an extremely enlightening effect on you undescribable.

I met a former christian priest who converted to islam. During his lectures, he asked his mixed audience, addressing the christians, to raise their hand if they know ANY one SINGLE 'quote' from the bible BY HEART. Only 3 christians raised their hand. He then addressed his muslim audience, askin the same question. EVERY SINGLE MUSLIM raised their hand. He further asked how many muslims know the WHOLE Qur'an (in arabic!!!) BY HEART (i.e. have memorized it all)? And guess what? 16 of the 150+ muslims did!

This is exactly how the Qur'an has survived and is preserved in its TRUE and ORIGINAL form from the Day it was revealed to the prophet (saws) 1400...from century to century, from heart to heart.

If you were to recite A verse in the Qur'an (in arabic) and make just ONE minor mistake, lets say u say "in" instaed of "un".....i betya people could point out the mistake EASILY! Because though the qur'an is written in its own fascinating language, yet it's amazingly rather easy to MEMORIZE. So if someone was to alter even ONE LINE of the Qur'an, those who memorized the Qur'an (also called Hafiz-e-Qur'aan) would easily know. I call it a catch 22.

by KS:

--->Vedic ideas also influenced the start of Judaism. From Judaism came Christianity, and also Islam later. <---
- So the "Vedic ideas" influenced Judaim. And the proof of it? The proof of connection between Vedas and Moses.
- Are Vedas divine?


---> Would you find a religion in the west spring up with the concept of karma? No.<---
But the concept of karma (fate) IS present in western religions. By the way, what do you exactly mean by "karma"?

--->It does not suggest they are not divine, it just suggests that there are trends on some religions.<---
Trends use to be in "cultures", not religions.

---> If there was a faith before those of Vedic times (which Arya Samajas have tried to create) it would indeed be rather similar to Sikhism. <---

And the proof is?

--->The only similarity between Islam and Sikhism is a belief in one god. This is also present in Vedic beliefs. Hence it is unlikely this idea was "taken" from Islam at all.<---
As somebody quoted above, Gurunanak DID have influence of Muslims. He lived among Muslims, and was fond of Sufis. So he incorporated their teachings in his religion. Concept of one God is only one concept taken from Islam in Sikhism. Another concept is that of spirituality. Muslims Sufis used perform meditations themselves in various ways. Like Maulana Rom used to whirl in circles.

--->Dont forget that there are plenty of stories in the Quran that bear remarkable resemblence to those in the Bible, Torah and Talmud (not sure about the last one actually).<---
Of course, because Islam is a continuation of religions of ALL previous prophets, including Moses and Jesus.


--->"So why do you eat and drink?"
To survive. Eventually Ill try and cut out all the things I enjoy for pleasure rather than survival, eg soft drinks, choccies, etc. This may seem extreme to some, but attatchment to wordly things no doubt cause one to temporarily forget God. Guru Nanak said that one should live the life of a householder (ie family) but remain detattched with attatchment only to God. <---

How many Sikhs follow this rule? When one lives a family-life then it is not possible for him to attach to God ALL times, which is the peak of spiritualism, according to you.
So one could NEVER achieve that "great" height of total attachment with God, not even Gurunanak, because he lived a family-life too.


---> I am saying that there is a trend that in eastern religions there is a concept of enlightenment, and there is not in western religions. This is a fact.<---
Again, trends use to be in cultures, not religions.

--->This is why those from western religions (Islam, Xtainity, Judaism) will not understand the concept of enlightenment and see it as fake, or simply "going psycho". <---
We call the enlightenment, "prophethood".

--->Have you ever done reading/understanding into such a concept of Jeevan Mukta? <---
Sounds like a Sufi concept.

--->Religion and culture are very much seperate. In Sikhism Punjabi culture has had a bad influence on Sikhism and has changed it to an extent from its original form - sexism, casteism (jattism etc) and bhangra are all things often seen in modern Sikh (usually non religious) families which are a product of Punjabi culture rather than Sikh teaching, which in its scriptures condemns such things.<---
I have never seen any Sikh other than in Punjabis!

--->BTW im not asking anyone to "believe" my views. Im just asking you to think.<---
Don't worry. Nobody will "believe" in your views. Keep posting.

Hey KS, whoever u are..
first all of all, Welcome to Mp.
Secondly, starighten your facts. Muslims do not believe the all of the bible is words God.
Some of it is and the rest is human intervention.
and about Muhammed (Peace and blessign be upon him) being able to read and write, give me your proof.
What people mostly give muslims as proof of his literacy is that he wrote letters to other rulers. That is true, but he didnt write the letters himself.
Even if he could, its hard to believe that Quran is the word of man.
IF muhammed wrote the quran, then other people could write a book like the quran. But there is no book that matches the Glory of the Quran. Many people wasted theri lives trying to produce something similar to it Or finding errors in it. They all failed miserably.

There are a lot of exaples of those people. If you are that familiar with hadith, then i think u should know about it

hey KS
the 'stoning' verse is not 'missing'.its recitation has been abrogated but the ruling is still valid.
ofcourse the ahmedis will give you a different explanation

and the 'hadith' about some parts of the quran being lost (supposedly eaten up by a goat!) is believed by only a part of the shias and not even all of them.

He's picking feathers.

"but islam regards the bible as gods word. yes? the koran says that gods word cannot be changed/corrupted. yes?

so therefore either a) the bible is still gods word and therefore \"people of the book\" are both muslims and christians or the quran is corrupted as the bible is."

The Quran says that gods words cannot be changed, EXCLUSIVELY applying this to the Quran ITSELF. Nothing else.

You must understand the meaning of Islam. Islam means SUBMISSION to God. A Muslim literally means, 'BELIEVER' . You dont have to be called a MUSLIM in this world to be granted a Passage to Heaven. There are MANY 'believers' in this world. Some dont even know about it themselves. And in the end it is GOD's OWN discretion of WHO goes and does not go.

Islam doesnt condemn all non muslims to hellfire, contrary to popular belief.

guru nanak had muslim and hindu friends. and?

does that mean that all his thoughts/ideas were derived directly from then?

guru nanak had a revalation from god in the pool for 2 days. he preached the mool mantar straight after that. if you can find me the quranic verse that is the same as that i would be interested. ik onkar saat naam karta purakh nirvau nirvae akal murath ajuni savang gurparsad is nothing like anything from teh koran.

my point is, the bible is said in the quran to be the word of god. however the quran also says elsewhere that the word of god (not just the quran) cannot be corrupted or changed over time. hence the bible must be in its original form (and no where in the quran does mohammed actually say the bible has been corrupted) or both are changed in some way. comprende?

with regards to the eloquence of the quran and science in it, again i cant comment from 1st hand experience but i have heard other people say it is not different from the eloquence of other scriptures. nobel prize winners have commented on the beauty of the guru granth sahib also.

i didnt really see much science in those quotes - none explicitly said that the earth rotated round the sun, or even that hte earth was round. guru granth sahib talks of solar systems, the rotation of the earth, the earth being round, and even millions of planets. if u want quotes ill provide them.

dude, quran doess actually say the bible was changed
for exammple in one instence God says in the Quran that "they changed the words from the right places".
and also the Quran tells us of how people wprte something themselves and claimed that it was the word of God.
Please beore saying something, research it a little bit.

"- Are Vedas divine?"

possibly. who knows. it has allot of the scientific oddities/statements that the quran does, like mountains being pegs to stop earthquakes

karma is simple science. for every action there is a reaction. there is no such concept in semetic faiths, although there is a undeveloped version to an extent in islam where it is said one is punished for bad actions.

"And the proof is?"

its simply looking at vedic ideas, watching how they evolved into the ritualistic mess that is hinduism, and hypothesisng what pre vedic beliefs would be like.

one god was originally in vedic ideas also. and spirituality is very underdeveloped in sufi ideas.

how can islam be a continuation of previous prophets if it claims that they are gods word, then says gods word cannot change.

"How many Sikhs follow this rule?"

very few. but does that mean teh "rule" is not valid

of course one can be godly and lead a family life. you can have a house but not be attatched to it, and sin can still follow you if u renounce it and live like a tramp. come on, its not a hard concept to follow.

"We call the enlightenment, "prophethood"."

so only prophets reach that stage?

"Sounds like a Sufi concept."

no its a sikh concept.

"I have never seen any Sikh other than in Punjabis!"

really? in uk theres about 8000 white sikhs, which is a fair few considering sikhs dont do dawah or even bother trying to convert anyone or even preach. in america yogi bhajan has brought about 150,000 americans into sikhism on his own. but personally i dont agree with alot of preaching. because you are punjabi does not mean you have to follow the bad things in punjabi culture. did u know that?

"Don't worry. Nobody will "believe" in your views. Keep posting."

you remind me of a closed minded taliban extremist. are u?

something interesting

The period immediately preceding the time of Muhammad witnessed the rise of a theistic sect known as the Hanifs, a band of earnest reformers who rejected in toto the idolatry of their fellows, and stood for the worship of the one true God alone. The principal of these seekers after truth were Waraqa ibn Naufal, 'Ubaid Ullah, Ibn Jash, 'Uthman ibn al-Huwairith and Zaid ibn 'Amr.

A Tradition records that "Zaid adopted this term Hanif at the instance of a Christian and of a Jew who both exhorted him to become a Hanif. Zaid having at the time renounced idolatry, and being unable to receive either Judaism or Christianity said, 'What is a Hanif?' They both told him it was the religion of Abraham who worshipped nothing but God. Upon this Zaid exclaimed, 'O God, I bear witness that I follow the religion of Abraham.'"

Ibn Hisham, one of the earliest and most reliable of all the biographers of Muhammad has left in his book "Siratu'r-Rasulŗ an interesting account of the Hanifs in the course of which he tells us that: -
"Waraqa ibn Naufal entered the Christian faith, and took up the study of the Scriptures of the Christians until, at last, he became well versed in the learning of the people of the book."

The Traditionist Muslim further tells us that this Waraqa was the cousin of Khadija the wife of Muhammad, and that he translated the Injil into Arabic.

mohammed was literate quotes

The infidels said (to the Prophet), "We do not agree with you on this, for if we knew that you are Apostle of Allah we would not have prevented you for anything (i.e. entering Mecca, etc.), but you are Muhammad, the son of 'Abdullah." Then he said to 'Ali, "Erase (the name of) 'Apostle of Allah'." 'Ali said, "No, by Allah, I will never erase you (i.e. your name)." Then Allah's Apostle took the writing sheet...and he did not know a better writing..and he wrote or got it the following written: "This is the peace treaty which Muhammad, the son of 'Abdullah, has concluded: "Muhammad should not bring arms into Mecca except sheathed swords, and should not take with him any person of the people of Mecca even if such a person wanted to follow him, and if any of his companions wants to stay in Mecca, he should not forbid him." (excerpt from Sahih Bukhari 5.553)

Narrated 'Ubaidullah bin 'Abdullah:
Ibn 'Abbas said, "When the ailment of the Prophet became worse, he said, 'Bring for me (writing) paper and I will write for you a statement after which you will not go astray.' But 'Umar said, 'The Prophet is seriously ill, and we have got Allah's Book with us and that is sufficient for us.' But the companions of the Prophet differed about this and there was a hue and cry. On that the Prophet said to them, 'Go away (and leave me alone). It is not right that you should quarrel in front of me." Ibn 'Abbas came out saying, "It was most unfortunate (a great disaster) that Allah's Apostle was prevented from writing that statement for them because of their disagreement and noise. (Sahih Bukhari 1.114)

Apparently same hadith recorded again:
Narrated Ubaidullah bin 'Abdullah:
Ibn Abbas said, "When Allah's Apostle was on his deathbed and there were some men in the house, he said, 'Come near, I will write for you something after which you will not go astray.' Some of them ( i.e. his companions) said, 'Allah's Apostle is seriously ill and you have the (Holy) Quran. Allah's Book is sufficient for us.' So the people in the house differed and started disputing. Some of them said, 'Give him writing material so that he may write for you something after which you will not go astray.' while the others said the other way round. So when their talk and differences increased, Allah's Apostle said, "Get up." Ibn Abbas used to say, "No doubt, it was very unfortunate (a great disaster) that Allah's Apostle was prevented from writing for them that writing because of their differences and noise." (Sahih Bukhari 5.717)

so even if i believe in god but i dont accept mohammed, i can still go to heaven?

the satanic verses are verses that satan actually gave mohammed, but later on allah supposedly told mohammed these were false and they were removed. i thoughit it was pretty well known, heres one quote

Surah 22:52


Never sent We a messenger or a prophet before thee but when He recited (the message) Satan proposed (opposition) in respect of that which he recited thereof. But Allah abolisheth that which Satan proposeth. Then Allah establisheth His revelations. Allah is Knower, Wise;

[quote]something interesting

The period immediately preceding the time of Muhammad...
[/quote]


with the arrival of prophet mohammad (saws) many older teachings of prophets of Allah were replaced with newer laws.during the time of suleiman (as) statues were allowed to be made, during the time of yusuf (as) people were allowed to bow down before their parents.all these practises were brought to an end with the arrival of the message brought by mohammad (saws).the true teachings of ibrahim, isa, musa (as) are not available today.so even if someone claims to be following them, they would be following a corrupted version of their teachings.however, i believe anyone living before the arrival of the prophet mohammad (saws) wont be denied jannah just because s/he followed previous prophets.some even anticipated the prophet's (saws) arrival but didnt live to see him.
waraqa was a christian but he was the one who confirmed to khadijah (raa) that mohammad (saws) was the awaited prophet.so he believed in his prophethood as well.

Originally posted by KS

---> The period immediately preceding the time of Muhammad witnessed the rise of a theistic sect known as the Hanifs, a band of earnest reformers who rejected in toto the idolatry of their fellows, and stood for the worship of the one true God alone. The principal of these seekers after truth were Waraqa ibn Naufal, 'Ubaid Ullah, Ibn Jash, 'Uthman ibn al-Huwairith and Zaid ibn 'Amr.

The Traditionist Muslim further tells us that this Waraqa was the cousin of Khadija the wife of Muhammad, and that he translated the Injil into Arabic. <---

If the Prophet had taken his ideas from Waraqa, then this should have been the FIRST objection of Meccans on the Prophet. Especially in the case of Waraqa, the cousin of Khadija, as he was a known personality in Mecca. But we see that such objection was raised neither in his life nor after his death.

In fact there are ahadeeth which tells us that Waraqa had actually become a Christian, not something called "Hanif".

http://www.usc.edu/dept/MSA/quran/maududi/mau96.html

"Then she (Khadija) took him to Waraqah bin Naufal, who was her cousin. He had become a Christian in pre- Islamic days, wrote the Gospel in Arabic and Hebrew, and had become very old and blind. Hadrat Khadijah said: `Brother, listen to the son of your brother.' Waraqah said to the Holy Prophet: `What have you seen, nephew?' The Holy Prophet described what he had seen. Waraqah said; `This is the same Namus (the Angel of Revelation) which Allah had sent down to Moses. Would that I were a young man during your Prophethood! Would that I were alive when your tribe would expel you!' The Holy Prophet said: `Will they expel me?' Waraqah said; `Yes, never has it so happened that a person brought what you have brought and was not treated as an enemy. If I live till then I would help you with all the power at my command.' But not very long after this Waraqah died."
Ref: Bukhari


---> A Tradition records that "Zaid adopted this term Hanif at the instance of a Christian and of a Jew ... I bear witness that I follow the religion of Abraham.'" <---

- Nothing is worth discussion WITHOUT the reference of the book a particular hadith is taken from. Just writing down ANY hadith from ANY book does not prove anything.
- As I said, Christianity and Judaism are two facets of the religion of Ibrahim.

---> "Waraqa ibn Naufal entered the Christian faith, and took up the study of the Scriptures of the Christians until, at last, he became well versed in the learning of the people of the book." <---

So what? He became Christian and became well-versed in Bible. OK. What does it prove?

ks,

i tried to read ur long posts but somewhere in the middle i felt sleepy and went back to my bed. then i came back with a deteremination to read ur long posts. i was still not able to read ur posts. dont u get tired by wrting all that stuff. :zzz :zzz .menu taa nind aundi aa. wake me up after u r done with this:sarc


THIS IS YOUR LAST WARNING, HEREAFTER A BAN WILL FOLLOW IF YOU DO NOT STOP THIS IDLE CHIT CHAT, NOW!

Originally posted by KS

---> mohammed was literate quotes <---

You should know (which I know you don't) that the Islam has given utmost importance to knowledge. Prophet once said: "Acquiring knowledge is necessary on every Muslim and Muslimah".

After Ghazwa e Badr, the captured prisoners were set free on a condition that they teach illiterate Muslims. Then we also know about "Ashaab e Suffa".

How could it be that Islam and the Prophet makes acquisition of religion necessary for all Muslims, yet Prophet himself stay away from it?


---> the satanic verses are verses that satan actually gave mohammed, but later on allah supposedly told mohammed these were false and they were removed. i thoughit it was pretty well known,

heres one quote

Surah 22:52

Never sent We a messenger or a prophet before thee but when He recited (the message) Satan proposed (opposition) in respect of that which he recited thereof. But Allah abolisheth that which Satan proposeth. Then Allah establisheth His revelations. Allah is Knower, Wise; <---

There are some commentators who concluded what you are trying to say. It is actually theIR idea which is reverberated on anti-Islam sites, such as the one from which KS has taken this article.

But why do they think that Satan proposed that to prophets? No. Satan proposed such things not to the prophets but TO THE PEOPLE who listened to the prophets.

Read this explanation of the above verse:

QUOTE
"To confuse people so as to make them misinterpret the verses of the Quran Shaytan plants doubts in their minds about the Holy Prophet and the words of Allah he recited."

"Some pagans and hypocrites planned secretly to recite words praising idolatry alongside the recitation of the Holy Prophet, while he was praying, in such a way that the people would think as if they were recited by him. Once when the Holy Prophet was reciting verses 19 and 20 of Najm one of the pagans recited: "Tilkal gharani-ul ula wa inna shafa-atahuma laturja"-(These are the lofty (idols), verily their intercession is sought after.) As soon as this was recited the conspirators shouted in delight to make the people believe that it was the Holy Prophet who said these words. Here, the Quran is stating the general pattern the enemies of the messengers of Allah followed when they were positively convinced that the people were paying attention to the teachings of the messengers of Allah and sincerely believing in them. They would mix their false doctrines with the original teachings so as to make the divine message a bundle of contradictions. This kind of satanic insertions are referred to in thus verse, and it is supported by Ha Mim: 26. It is sheer blasphemy to say that satanic forces can influence the messengers of Allah. The Quran has repeatedly asserted that Shaytan shall have no authority whatsoever over the purified servants of Allah.

Surah An-Nahl:
[16:98] So when you recite the Quran, seek refuge with Allah from the accursed Shaitan,
[16:99] Surely he has no authority over those who believe and rely on their Lord.
UNQUOTE

Dear KS. You are not replying to all people who are asking you questions. Why is that?

You are putting up new allegations from anti-Islam sites.
I don't think it will ever stop, because there are MANY such sites. And you will be just copying and pasting from there, without looking at the responses.
Before referring to any new allegation, why don't you first accept that the allegations you made in your previous posts were false?

I will talk about your comments regarding Vedas and Sikhism later.

KS, we cannot progress if you A. Don't do your homework right and B. Don't read people's response with careful detailness. You keep asking repititious questions, or starting another dillemma such as "guru nanak had muslim and hindu friends. and? does that mean that all his thoughts/ideas were derived directly from then?" BUT WE FIRST NEED TO ADDRESS AND CLEARIFY ONE ISSUE and THEN move on to the next, no?

I told you before, that as a non-muslim, YOU WILL encounter difficulty to understand the Qur'an and Hadith fully, as background knowledge is REQUIRED. Thus your quoting of hadiths do not even prove your point, as they are understood slightly differently by us.

Please take time to read the responses with carefulness, if you cannot take the word of a muslim (who practises islam) but strive to rather stick to your own, flawed, understanding of islam, i do not think you will gain much.

Those Anti-islam sites are very wrong.. they say many false things:angry

so even if i believe in god but i dont accept mohammed, i can still go to heaven?

Nope, Have You Heard The Kalima, To Be A muslim, you must accept this kalima:

Lailla-ha-illalho-muhamadur-rasullullah- there is no go but Allah(swt) and Prophet Mohammed Is His Final messenger.

Paki Ruls, that is definitely correct for Muslims, and mankind in this era. However ALLAH KNOWS BEST, those righteous christians and jews at the time of hazrat Musa (as) and hazrat Isa (as) WILL go to Heaven. As for those Ahle-Kitaabi now, who strictly believe in the ONE divine God and regard Isa (as) or Musa (as) strictly as prophets and not 'the son of god' etc and do good deeds, they MAY be granted Jannah as well. We are not to judge in this regard.

Yes I do know that, I was refering to this day and stage.. Allah(swt) knows best..

What Luxor was trying to tell you KS is...

You've Been OWNED!

Totally

A little more intelectual insight will not harm. Shukran.

LOL!

u lot r getting edgy....

where have i mentioned anything about anti islamic sites? where have i mentioned anything about anti islam? what makes u think that i get all my quotes from anti islam pages?

if i wanted to criticise islam i would talk about the age of ayesha when she married mohammed, etc etc.

all im saying is, dont think islam is **so** above all other religions.

when i quoted the bit about the hanifs, where did i say that mohammed copied them? i never said that. but it proves my point that radically different beliefs dont just pop out of anywhere, they gradually change. that doesnt mean they are not divine either.

where are the questions i have not answered? calm it. what makes u think that ive not done plenty of background research into islam? infact i did a fair bit into all main religions before i became a truly religious sikh, to ensure i was on the path that best suited me

oh and btw, do sikhs count as kufirs or maybe people of the book (even if they dont follow the bible or torah, but they have similar beliefs to)

By acknowledging that sikhism is the most suitable religion for you, will you disagree that this results in sikhism being a more enlightening, divine, revelation for you? This is the same with a muslim. We tolerate every single faith, for we are told so by Allah in Surah Kafiroon, and we regard islam as a spiritual upliftment and a perfected revelation unlike others.

Research serves to make building stones out of stumbling blocks, not the other way around. It is delightful that you confront us with your questions and concerns, but it is rueful that you do not seem to want to accept the word from a muslim about his/her own faith. When we correct or answer your question, we are doing so with steadfast insight on the subject matter; you counter arguying with our own hadiths will not help you much, because we are already aware of the interpretation of these hadiths and they do not serve to prove your point. For as said, and i will repeat ONE LAST TIME, you do require background knowledge on islamic shariah in order to be able to use the quotations effectively.

"By acknowledging that sikhism is the most suitable religion for you, will you disagree that this results in sikhism being a more enlightening, divine, revelation for you?"

yes but not neccesarily for you

"This is the same with a muslim. We tolerate every single faith, for we are told so by Allah in Surah Kafiroon, and we regard islam as a spiritual upliftment and a perfected revelation unlike others."

no, islam is a missionary religion and ive had a few people trying to convert me, either by email or in real life!

"Research serves to make building stones out of stumbling blocks, not the other way around. It is delightful that you confront us with your questions and concerns, but it is rueful that you do not seem to want to accept the word from a muslim about his/her own faith."

Not when I hear different things from different Muslims. Some will admit there is wine in Jannah, others will say it is all lies and Jewish propaganda

"When we correct or answer your question, we are doing so with steadfast insight on the subject matter; you counter arguying with our own hadiths will not help you much, because we are already aware of the interpretation of these hadiths and they do not serve to prove your point."

everyone inteprits hadiths in different ways. hell everyone interprits words in different ways. some islamic scholars say apostacy means death, and this can just be not doing prayers, other scholars say not. does that mean one group is un islamic?

"For as said, and i will repeat ONE LAST TIME, you do require background knowledge on islamic shariah in order to be able to use the quotations effectively. "

I have background knowledge though.....you lot are going on about "questions I havent answered"....what are they?

QUOTE

Originally posted by KS islam is a missionary religion and ive had a few people trying to convert me, either by email or in real life!

Just because of a few people you concluded that islam is a missionary religion? Generalization is a sin, you know.

Unlike christianity, in islam, Allah says clearly: THERE IS NO COMPULSION IN RELIGION.
Allah says in the Qur'an "Amar bil ma'roof wa nahi anilmunkar" which can translate to "tell people of the right path, and refrain them from wrong." This means that we must excersize our diplomacy in inviting somebody to islam. However as said earlier, muslims are advised to set themselves righteous first.

Muhammad (saws) adhered meticulously to the charter he forged for Medina, which - grounded as it was in the Koranic injunction, "Let there be no compulsion in religion" (2:256) - is arguably the first mandate for religious tolerance in human history. See Huston Smith, The Illustrated World's Religions. Edward Gibbon in his History of the Saracen Empire said: "The greatest success of Muhammed's life was effected by sheer moral force without the stroke of a sword."

"Wilt thou then compel mankind, against their will, to believe? No soul can believe, except by the Will of God...." [Quran, 10:99.]

"And We send message-bearers. Only as heralds of glad tidings and Warners..." [Quran, 6:48.]


"Revile not ye. Those whom they call upon. Besides God, lest. They out of spite, Revile God In their ignorance." [20. Quran, 6:108.]

"O you who believe, if any of you reverts from his religion,
Then God will bring people whom He loves as theylove Him,
And humble themselves towards the believers,
While being stern towards the disbelievers;
And strive in the cause of God;
And never worry about any blamer who might blame them.
Such is God's grace that He bestows upon whomever He wills.
God is bounteous, omniscient." [Quran, 5:54.]

"The Quran is the synthesis of religion, not something new, a universal message for all people. You have absolute freedom to follow it or not."- Mustapha Tougui, an Algerian teacher and scholar on Islam living in France, as reported by Adam Lebor in A Heart Turned East.

To this, some Muslims smile, remembering that missionaries have been coming to the slamic world for centuries upon centuries, and were exceedingly widespread during the colonial era, but still failed in their objectives. Other Muslims frown, and find such a statement degrading. But both merely shrug their shoulders and say,

"We shall bear witness to the message that was brought by the Seal of the Prophets, and leave you to decide what is true and what is not. Let there be no compulsion on you either way, but let us bear witness that we have said what Islam is."

Even Christian theologians today, such as the celebrated Hans Kung, admit that the Christian mission to the Muslims failed completely. For while Muslims can easily display many famous former Christian priests, lords and even evangelicals who became Muslims,[For example, Bishop David Benjamin Keldani, Bishop John Jacob, Anselm Turmeda, Rev. Prof. Abraham Phillips, or Father Marino, Gary Miller (who now goes by the name Abdulahad Omar), or Father Norman, the 19th century Christian priest who went to Turkey to preach Christianity to the 'heathens' and came back to America in order to convert the Christians to Islam, and even an Anglo-Saxon king Offa (757-796 CE)

"Islamic tolerance of the other stipulates not imposing its ethical norms regarding food, dress or drink. That which is lawful in the culture of the non-Muslim, concerning his food, dress or drink and way of life, such as the consumption of intoxicating beverages or pork, or the exposing of certain parts of the female body, is not debarred by Islam even if its values interdict it. Instead, Islam accepts such differences on the basis of its recognition of the other's fundamental rights of belief and expression, so long as they are not found to be offensive to the general character or public norms of Muslim society, such as aberring from demure dress in public, for that is what the general consensus repels, in Muslim society and in all the societies that have maintained a certain degree of respect for religious values, for the value of modesty and for innate ethics. Islam wields these phenomena, if exacerbate and customary amongst people, through adopting the method of gradualism, conviction and education in reducing their proliferation." -Rached Ghannoushi, exiled leader of the Tunisian an-Nahda (Renaissance) Movement.

Lastly, in Surah Kafiroon, Allah says: "...Lakum deeno Kum Waliyah Deen" translit: "You have your belief, and i got mine."

QUOTE

Originally posted by KS Not when I hear different things from different Muslims. Some will admit there is wine in Jannah, others will say it is all lies and Jewish propaganda

What do u mean 'from different muslims'? There is only one kind of a muslim, sectism is only a mean of approach. The main two sects are Sunnism and Shia'ism, you will find they are around 95% the same, the BASICS (what we are talking about right now!) are THE SAME for both. We advised you before on the islamic stance it holds in regards to Wine in Jannah, it will be NOT intoxicating, you needn't blindly believe the first Mullah you bump into.

QUOTE

everyone inteprits hadiths in different ways.

I suppose you meant to say \"interpret\".
Hadiths are seriously interpreted the same way, they just differ slightly in word choice. The hadith collection between sunnis and shias varies, but as for those hadiths (almost all of them) who are the same, it is interpreted in similar ways. You needn't be confused by all these sects, it's a bad way of approaching islam, because you are broadening the scope so much, it could take YEARS till we're done.

QUOTE

I have background knowledge though.....you lot are going on about \\"questions I havent answered\\"....what are they?

Questions that you haven't answered are non of my concern. I am just asking you open-mindedly read my response as to avoid repititious questioning.

I doubt you lack credible and sufficient background knowledge, judging from your arguments. Without wanting to offend you, you don't even seem to have the basics of islam down. Qur'anic Ayahs were revealed at certain times during the prophecy of Muhammad (saws) thus in order to understand the actual message of a Ayah, you NEED to know under what circumstances it was sent. Apparently you are freely quoting Ayahs and hadiths to get your point accross which in fact do not even support your stance.

QUOTE

Originally posted by KS             mohammed was literate quotes The infidels said (to the Prophet), \\"We do not agree with you on this, for if we knew that you are Apostle of Allah we would not have prevented you for anything (i.e. entering Mecca, etc.), but you are Muhammad, the son of 'Abdullah.\\" Then he said to 'Ali, \\"Erase (the name of) 'Apostle of Allah'.\\" 'Ali said, \\"No, by Allah, I will never erase you (i.e. your name).\\" Then Allah's Apostle took the writing sheet...and he did not know a better writing..and he wrote OR got it the following written: \\"This is the peace treaty which Muhammad, the son of 'Abdullah, has concluded: \\"Muhammad should not bring arms into Mecca except sheathed swords, and should not take with him any person of the people of Mecca even if such a person wanted to follow him, and if any of his companions wants to stay in Mecca, he should not forbid him.\\" (excerpt from Sahih Bukhari 5.553)

hmm missing the important parts, arent we?

QUOTE

=======~~~i didnt really see much science in those quotes - none explicitly said that the earth rotated round the sun, or even that hte earth was round. ```======

Quran, 79:30 “God created heaven, and after that he round shaped the earth.”
Quran, 21:33

\"It is He Who created the Night and the Day, and the sun and the moon: all (the celestial bodies) rotate (falak), each in their celestial spheres.\" Yusaf Ali, M.H. Shakir


The Arabic word \"falak\" used for planets and planets' movements in Verse 21:33 means rotation or movement. The Quran states that all celestial bodies including the earth rotate.


hmmm you kept asking abt the things you havent answered......well its stuff like my reply above, you tend to ignore the posts that prove your statements wrong :-\

QUOTE

=====~~where have i mentioned anything about anti islamic sites? where have i mentioned anything about anti islam? what makes u think that i get all my quotes from anti islam pages? ~~~==========

it'd b crystal clear for a typical Muslim to see that u've been gettin ur info frm the wrong places neway if you still want to know....then . . .hmm you talked about the \"missing hadith\"... you talked about the \ඐ hoors\"... and you ALSO talked about the \"stonning\" hadith and this stuff is specially highlighted in the anti-islamic websited!

QUOTE

=====~~~if i wanted to criticise islam i would talk about the age of ayesha when she married mohammed,~~~====

1. missing hadith...checked
2. 72 hoors....checked
3. doubt for Quran not being Allah's word
4. Hazrat Aisha(as)....checked
:hoho lemme guess ur next target is the \"eye for an eye\" message Quran gives out? seems to me like ALL the sikhs are taugh the same thing about Islam...and in the SAME order lolz

QUOTE

========~~~all im saying is, dont think islam is **so** above all other religions~~~=====

<speaking frm a Muslims POV> a fact is a fact is a fact :sarc

ok its our Belief.....as Luxor explained BEFORE, exactly like you think of ur religion being the best, we belief that ours is the best...best of all!
u cant tell us to believe that Sikhism is as good as Islam....may be to you it is and we do respect that:) it my even teach good stuff which lead to humanity; all religions do...but to Muslims Islam is and will be the beest of all.



ppl of the book = Muslims, Christians & Jews.

Quran, 79:30 says nothing about round earth.

pickthall says: And after that He spread the earth,

palmer: and the earth after that He did stretch out.

i would say that tells you the earth is flat, in my opinion, not round.

Quran, 21:33 - pickhall says:

And He it is Who created the night and the day, and the sun and the moon. They float, each in an orbit.

palmer: He it is who created the night and the day, and the sun and the moon, each floating in a sky.

that doesnt sound particularly scientific either. it sortov implies that the sun and the moon are rotating round the earth.....but then i guess thats what they thought in those days.

everyone knows about the 72 hoors. it was in the papers once.

ive been to plenty of islamic websites sources and read books, lol, because ive got a slightly broader and 2 sided picture of things, im an evil anti islam kufir? like i said, if i wanted i could criticise islam in a mean way, bt i dont particularly want to (unless u do)

"lemme guess ur next target is the "eye for an eye" message Quran gives out? seems to me like ALL the sikhs are taugh the same thing about Islam...and in the SAME order lolz"

eye for an eye? wat? sikhs arent taught anything about islam, but guru gobind singh says study all religions because each one contains some truth in it. i think your just a bit ticked off because ive mentioned stuff you dont particularly like.

"ok its our Belief.....as Luxor explained BEFORE, exactly like you think of ur religion being the best, we belief that ours is the best...best of all!"

i think it is the best for me. i am differnt to you.....ive never implied sikhism is the only way to god.

"u cant tell us to believe that Sikhism is as good as Islam....may be to you it is and we do respect that it my even teach good stuff which lead to humanity; all religions do...but to Muslims Islam is and will be the beest of all."

where have i asked you to believe that? your makin up more BS...isnt a bit closed minded to say islam is the "beest" of all if u havent studied all other paths in detail?

"ppl of the book = Muslims, Christians & Jews."

o well.....im gnna burn in hellfire

QUOTE

Originally posted by KS             Quran, 79:30 says nothing about round earth.   pickthall says: And after that He spread the earth,   palmer: and the earth after that He did stretch out. i would say that tells you the earth is flat, in my opinion, not round.

the translation is the closest they can get to the real arabic but even then, it cannot be as accurate as the actual arabic text.the arabic text in the Quran reads:
"wal arda ba'da zalika dahaaha" [79:30]

the translation of which would be: "and the Earth, after that, He made it like a deheya"

The word "deheya" in Arabic means an egg, hence the oval shape. But the verse also includes a further remarkably accurate scientific fact. The words 'after that' clearly indicate that the earth acquired the oval shape at a later stage to it's formation. Modern science will testify that the bulging of the earth at the equator is a result of the continuous spinning of the earth on it's axis, and thus had to occur sometime after the formation of the earth.