Interesting Disucssion, Naie Raahain (News and Views) Options

[Inc0gnito]

I think I've mentioned in this thread before but what do you consider a Muslim who doesn't pay Zakaat? Is he rejecting a commandment? Yes.

Is he rejecting the commandment because he does not believe it to be or is he rejecting it because he just doesn't want to do it? Its like Salah. You know you gotta do it, but still out of laziness you just don't wanna do it.

But u_ahmed, isn't rejecting zakat or salah vastly different than say - rejecting the finality of the Holy Prophet(saw) of Islam or rejecting Mirza Ghulam Ahmad himself? Mirza Ghulam Ahmad specifically said that He who does not believe in him is a non-muslim. Hahah if he just wanted to say - "Well... he is a .. not so good muslim" - it makes no sense at all. lol Its almost like looking for Ripple's Jesus with a telescope.

This post has been edited by Inc0gnito: Jun 30 2010, 08:39 PM

[u_ahmed]

No Ahmadi Muslim rejects the finality of Prophethood (saw). The difference as you and I both know is the interpretation of the word khatam. Our belief and opinion on the matter has been expressed bypersonalities such Ibn-Arabi, Maulana Rumi and countless other scholars.

If you believe in something and don't do it, then isn't that in itself a form of rejection? And if you don't do it then what then? Let's say kal that person xyz says i'm not going to pay zakaat because my government is corrupt and who konws where my money goes..the one to judge him Allah and ultimately he shall

This post has been edited by u_ahmed: Jun 30 2010, 09:01 PM

[Inc0gnito]

No Ahmadi Muslim rejects the finality of Prophethood (saw). The difference as you and I both know is the interpretation of the word khatam. Our belief and opinion on the matter has been expressed bypersonalities such Ibn-Arabi, Maulana Rumi and countless other scholars.

If you believe in something and don't do it, then isn't that in itself a form of rejection? And if you don't do it then what then? Let's say kal that person xyz says i'm not going to pay zakaat because my government is corrupt and who konws where my money goes..the one to judge him Allah and ultimately he shall

Yeah we all know how Prophets have been neatly segregated in the Ahmadiyah Belief system. Law (cough) bringers and then.... nothing bringers. Circumvention is what it looks like. The repercussions of which would mean an endless stream of Prophets until the end of time itself. This is a major deviation from Islam whose major cornerstone foundation is based on Finality of the Prophet AND the Finality of the Final Revelation. Apparently that too seems to be unFinal for the Ahmadis. Call it Non-Law based or Law based, Revelation aka Quran is also NOT final for the Ahmadis.

Rumi the poet!? Ibn Arabi the sufi dude!? Both 11th and 12th century guys!? My belief and opinion on the matter has been expressed by this man named Muhammad Ibn Abdullah and ofcourse... a God.

As for the Zakat matter - to me its pretty much clear - Person xyz believes in the system. However justifies not doing it for whatever reason - other than the legitimate one being he is just too poor; is his own prerogative. It does not affect Islam. Changes nothing for anybody. He is not making a message. Thats his own sin.

But the minute he starts calling people up and telling them, "Hey guess what guys!? This Zakat thing is Bogus! Don't give it!" - yeah, then people can judge for themselves as well.

[d-tox..ed]

1. Detox has only added more questions ... I want answers from your own perspective ... not answers conjured up to reflect my views.

My question has key to the answer you are seeking. If you look for answers from others to make up your mind then I guess you dont want to use your own brain and want others to tell you what you are looking for.

I asked very simple and basic questions which every Muslim should know. If I give you the answer you or someone else will start deviating from the topic...like InCognito has just turned around on the subject suddenly to Khatme Nabbuwat....lolz...then he ll come on Pakistani Law...then he ll say when we recite Kalima we dont mean Holy Prophet SAW in the Kalima...you see he is here to make use of excuses....and deviate from the topic...He will never stick on one topic to finish it...

Why cant you make a simple comparison of three very basic words?

Kafir
Muslim
Non Muslim

2. You say with the exception of Jamaat-e-Ahmadiyya ... I've just checked Incogs source ... I think it pretty much speaks for itself? Unless your saying even though they are prohibited, if an Ahmedi woman married a non-Ahmedi ... the nikkah is still valid? Can you see the confusion I have here? When something is 'forbidden' in Islam, it usually carries quite heavy consequences.

Why are you making your life so difficult....just read the link given by InCognito once again....perhaps all parts if possible.

This post has been edited by d-tox..ed: Jul 1 2010, 02:23 AM

[Inc0gnito]

In Islamic parlance, a kāfir is a word used to describe a person who rejects Islamic faith.

[Ripple]

My best friend is ahmadi, and ive known her since forever. I have never heard such nonsense from her, only that Ahmadis believe non-Ahmadis to be Kafir. My Ahmadi friend tells me that Ahmadis believe (Not unlike other sects) their community/sect to be the chosen people on the right path while the other sects to have gone astray.

This post has been edited by Ripple: Jul 1 2010, 03:14 AM

[Inc0gnito]

My best friend is ahmadi, and ive known her since forever. I have never heard such nonsense from her, only that Ahmadis believe non-Ahmadis to be Kafir. My Ahmadi friend tells me that Ahmadis believe (Not unlike other sects) their community/sect to be the chosen people on the right path while the other sects to have gone astray.

My Best friend is Mirza Ghulam Ahmad. Any man that can lead so many Pakistanis down a path deserves some level of respect - just like Asif Ali Zardari does too. oh wait...

What a smart man should ask himself - I said man, because women tend to forget smartness when it comes to Prophets (since they never had a womanly prophet ever, perhaps Ahmadis can remedy this too.. since they don't have a full stop philosophy lol) - What a smart man should ask himself is that what is the significance of Mirza Ghulam Ahmad saying, "That he who does not believe in me is a kafir." If Kafir was just a small little word to be thrown around. He who does not do wudhoo is a kafir.. he who does not pay zakat is a kafir.. In other words Mirza Ghulam Ahmad was just doing small talk when he said this? Naah. I think you Ahmadis do not give him enough credit. The man made a bold claim - the least you Ahmadis can do is live upto it and grow a spine. Admit it. Say it. You are already being persecuted for intruding on Islam and plagiarism. Why not just go all out? Too me this stance of the Ahmadiyah community is like... Penny wise Dollar stupid.

This post has been edited by Inc0gnito: Jul 1 2010, 03:33 AM

[d-tox..ed]

In Islamic parlance, a kāfir is a word used to describe a person who rejects Islamic faith.

What would you call a Muslim who does not pray....drinks alcohol...eat haraam food and still call himself to be muslim?

BTW you forgot two other definitions:

Muslim
Non Muslim

My Best friend is Mirza Ghulam Ahmad. Any man that can lead so many Pakistanis down a path deserves some level of respect - just like Asif Ali Zardari does too. oh wait...

What a smart man should ask himself - I said man, because women tend to forget smartness when it comes to Prophets (since they never had a womanly prophet ever, perhaps Ahmadis can remedy this too.. since they don't have a full stop philosophy lol) - What a smart man should ask himself is that what is the significance of Mirza Ghulam Ahmad saying, "That he who does not believe in me is a kafir." If Kafir was just a small little word to be thrown around. He who does not do wudhoo is a kafir.. he who does not pay zakat is a kafir.. In other words Mirza Ghulam Ahmad was just doing small talk when he said this? Naah. I think you Ahmadis do not give him enough credit. The man made a bold claim - the least you Ahmadis can do is live upto it and grow a spine. Admit it. Say it. You are already being persecuted for intruding on Islam and plagiarism. Why not just go all out? Too me this stance of the Ahmadiyah community is like... Penny wise Dollar stupid.

mene aapko 100 samjhaaya hai nashe mien naa likha karro...whenever you do you end up with posts like just above^^^^^^^

[Inc0gnito]

What would you call a Muslim who does not pray....drinks alcohol...eat haraam food and still call himself to be muslim?

I can call him "Munafiq".

[d-tox..ed]

So according to you

Kafir - who rejects Islamic faith
Muslim - (no idea)
Non Muslim - (no idea)
Muslim who abuses faith (Munafiq)

Kindly clarify Muslim and Non Muslim as well...and meaning of Munafiq?

[Inc0gnito]

So according to you

Kafir - who rejects Islamic faith
Muslim - (no idea)
Non Muslim - (no idea)
Muslim who abuses faith (Munafiq)

Kindly clarify Muslim and Non Muslim as well...and meaning of Munafiq?

Munafiq means a religious hypocrite.
A Muslim is someone who believes in the religion of Islam. Its basic tenets and foundations. Which are:
1. One Single God worthy of worship.
2. Muhammad(saw) His Messenger the Final Prophet.
3. Quran - The Final Revelation.
And so on.

A Non-Muslim is for all purposes a Kafir. Like this guy right here.

[d-tox..ed]

Munafiq means a religious hypocrite.
A Muslim is someone who believes in the religion of Islam. Its basic tenets and foundations. Which are:
1. One Single God worthy of worship.
2. Muhammad(saw) His Messenger the Final Prophet.
3. Quran - The Final Revelation.
And so on.

A Non-Muslim is for all purposes a Kafir. Like this guy right here.

I told you not to put up your pics in public....this will make bad impression...but you didnt listen...(now you are in more trouble of finding any rishta online..lolz)....

So according to you

Munafiq - religious hypocrite/Muslim who abuses faith
Non-Muslim - Kafir
Kafir - who rejects Islamic faith

Can Muslim be a Kafir?

This post has been edited by d-tox..ed: Jul 1 2010, 10:00 AM

[Radiance]

seriously ... your still busy asking questions

Can Muslim be a Kafir?

Yes, a muslim can be a kafir .. when one misses their salat for no valid reason, they become a kafir ... but the minute they take up salaat again, they become muslim ... during this process, one doesn't need to 'convert'

[Radiance]

You cant be both simultaneously.

[Nara-e-Mastana]

Holy Quran is the final book of Allah and Islam the final religion of Allah and Holy Prophet SAW is Khatamun Nabiyyeen. The faith has completed to it's extent.

There is a flaw in your statement Adnan sahib. I agree Islam is a complete and final religion. But have you ever thought if Islam is complete then what will Imam Mahdi and Esa Ibn e Maryam will come and do? Hahdrat Mirza Ghulam Ahmad AS has done exactly the same job which you believe Imam Mahdi and Hadhrat Esa AS will do which is indeed revival of faith. The additions andmisconceptions about faith which were added during 1400 years have been removed and Khilafat is established which will last till the day of Judgement.

Imam Mahdi and Hadhrat Esa AS will take guidance from Quran and Hadees...they will strictly follow deen-e-Mohammad... The Islam Completed on Prophet Mohammad PBUH.... They will follow Shariyat of Prophet Mohammad PBUH like all other muslims.. The will lead muslims to implement shariyat. As far as revival of faith is concerned..."Quran" and "Hadees" are enough...

The moment they try to introduce something new in Islam...then they are not "Isa(as) or Mehdi".... for example: adding a new law to declare someone kafir.... creating a new "janat-ul-baaqee"... giving something status of "Makkah or Madina"...
... creating alternative of hajj.... giving a masjid status of "masjid-e-qasa"... changing the meaning of jehad... become servant of britishers or israel...

They will not say that "Seal of Prophethood" doesn't mean "End of Prophethood".... one the face of it it looks like "End of Prophethood"... but let me tell you the real meaning which no one ever understood... it means "last law bearing prophet"...
Isa (as) and Mehdi certainly will not say this... because they will not cook something in their brain just to create a new place for themselves in ISLAM... They will follow each and every teaching of Prophet Mohammad (PBUH)... word by word...
Not like MGA...who was expert in changing meanings and playing with words...


--

[Inc0gnito]

They will follow each and every teaching of Prophet Mohammad (PBUH)... word by word...
Not like MGA...who was expert in changing meanings and playing with words...
--

Well.. I wouldn't call him an "expert". Thats like giving the man too much credit. I would call him - shortsighted. The man had obvious flaws in his arguments and simply didn't plan the whole ordeal through. It was a good plan but ultimately there are enormous flaws in his approach and character. He has become the victim of his own prophecy.

[Black knight]

seriously ... your still busy asking questions
Yes, a muslim can be a kafir .. when one misses their salat for no valid reason, they become a kafir ... but the minute they take up salaat again, they become muslim ... during this process, one doesn't need to 'convert'

hmm.. i dunno if that makes sense. Can you bring your source? Kafir is based on the Tauheed. The Oneness of God and that Muhammad(saw) is his last messenger. Whatever comes after is between the individual and Him only.

[Radiance]

hmm.. i dunno if that makes sense. Can you bring your source? Kafir is based on the Tauheed. The Oneness of God and that Muhammad(saw) is his last messenger. Whatever comes after is between the individual and Him only.

The Prophet (SAW) said: "The covenant between us and them (that is, believers) is prayer, so if anyone abandons it he has become an infidel." (Ahmad, Ibn Majah, Abu Dawood, Nisai, Tirmidhi).

He also said: "What lies between a man and infidelity is the abandonment of prayer." (Muslim)


http://qa.sunnipath.com/issue_view.asp?HD=...061&CATE=24

Now I personally wouldn't go around calling/declaring them kafir .. at the end of the day, it is between the person and Allah swt.

This post has been edited by Radiance: Jul 1 2010, 02:19 PM

[d-tox..ed]

The Prophet (SAW) said: "The covenant between us and them (that is, believers) is prayer, so if anyone abandons it he has become an infidel." (Ahmad, Ibn Majah, Abu Dawood, Nisai, Tirmidhi).

He also said: "What lies between a man and infidelity is the abandonment of prayer." (Muslim)
http://qa.sunnipath.com/issue_view.asp?HD=...061&CATE=24

Now I personally wouldn't go around calling/declaring them kafir .. at the end of the day, it is between the person and Allah swt.

exactly....and precisly ...so now you sort have answer to your original question....why we should not marry non Muslims or Ahle Kitaab...and for the similar reason why inter sect marriages have very less chance of success...

Please tell your findings to Pakistani Parliament of 1974.

[Radiance]

^^
1. Tell Pakistan what findings? That you took me around in cirlces and still haven't answered the question? You said non-ahmedi men had to convert in order to marry an ahmadi woman .. I'd like to know how does one convert? What exactly is the process? And why does non-ahmadi need to convert? Do you not consider them a Muslim?
2. find me something from the quran/hadith that tells me intersect marriages are not allowed ... I'm still waiting.

If muslims followed the true and correct teachings of the our Prophet, pbuh, then there wouldn't be any divisions or any sects. even if you wanted to classify yourself into a 'sect', then that still does not mean one cannot marry out side it, without 'converting' them into that particular sect. We are all muslims first and fore most. Lets not forget that!

Now if you feel that a certain sect is out the folds of Islam, that is a totally different matter

This post has been edited by Radiance: Jul 2 2010, 04:31 AM

[d-tox..ed]

^^
1. Tell Pakistan what findings? That you took me around in cirlces and still haven't answered the question? You said non-ahmedi men had to convert in order to marry an ahmadi woman .. I'd like to know how does one convert? What exactly is the process? And why does non-ahmadi need to convert? Do you not consider them a Muslim?

Well let me make it easier for you. It should precisly be the word: Bait...taking the oath of allegence...the word bait has indeed been used in Ahadith..ie take the bait of Imam Mahdi...etc

Non Ahmadi does need to take Bait...and yes any Qalma go is a Muslim.

2. find me something from the quran/hadith that tells me intersect marriages are not allowed ... I'm still waiting.

I did not say they are not allowed I said these are matters of principles. How can one live the most closes life with a person whom one considers a kafir...Infidel...non believer...etc etc???

For example Christians believe in three Gods...God the father, God the son and God the Holy Spirit. Shirk is highest form of Gunah...how would a Muslim man ever consider marrying with a person who is a Mushrik? You can but you wont be able to tolerate....you will always find them in argument...

Come to Muslims and intersect marriage..

Take the example of Shia and Sunni. Why Sunnis are Sunnis and not Shia? Becasue they do not consider them to be on the right path....Sunnis think Shia have deviated from the actual teachings of Islam and vice versa. ie they both consider each other Kafir....deviated from the teachings of Islam..etc etc

in such situation you are bound to have religious conflicts if you marry ... however people who do not follow the teachings of their sects they should not have such problem...

The reason why our Khalifa banned the inter sect marriages were on the basis of principle and not on the basis of hatred.

Now if you feel that a certain sect is out the folds of Islam, that is a totally different matter

I have no such feelings. Allah has given the right to everyone to practice whatever they find suitable to their understanding.....No one can impose certain teachings on anyone...as Holy Quran says...Laa Ikraaha fidddeen...there is no compulsion in matter of faith....

ie I do not consider anyone to be out of the pale of Islam...but indeed there are few who do...and maybe you are one of them.

p.s - will get back to you on Imam Mahdi question later...

This post has been edited by d-tox..ed: Jul 2 2010, 06:09 AM

[Inc0gnito]

Take the example of Shia and Sunni. Why Sunnis are Sunnis and not Shia? Becasue they do not consider them to be on the right path....Sunnis think Shia have deviated from the actual teachings of Islam and vice versa. ie they both consider each other Kafir....deviated from the teachings of Islam..etc etc

Technically the difference between Shiites and Sunnis comes down to politically dichotomy. They both believe in One God. They both believe Muhammad(saw) as the Last prophet. They Both believe the Quran is the Final Revelation. Until and unless a messiah shows up for either one - and one or the other does not believe in the others' - until such an event - they both are considered muslims by all accounts. The Ahmadis have attempted to take away something from Muhammad(Saw) The Finality. They attempted to take away something from the Quran - The Finality of the revelation. Deny as much as they may - that is exactly what they want to accomplish. It is in these respects the Ahmadis are most loathed by the Muslim world majora. Don't cry wolf.

[d-tox..ed]

Technically the difference between Shiites and Sunnis comes down to politically dichotomy. They both believe in One God. They both believe Muhammad(saw) as the Last prophet. They Both believe the Quran is the Final Revelation. Until and unless a messiah shows up for either one - and one or the other does not believe in the others' - until such an event - they both are considered muslims by all accounts. The Ahmadis have attempted to take away something from Muhammad(Saw) The Finality. They attempted to take away something from the Quran - The Finality of the revelation. Deny as much as they may - that is exactly what they want to accomplish. It is in these respects the Ahmadis are most loathed by the Muslim world majora. Don't cry wolf.

If i reply then it would be the same reply which I guess I have 10 times previously..

[Radiance]

very good article if you want to read ... to which i have quoted below some parts in brackets []

http://www.islamqa.com/en/ref/90112

Well let me make it easier for you. It should precisly be the word: Bait...taking the oath of allegence...the word bait has indeed been used in Ahadith..ie take the bait of Imam Mahdi...etc

the word bait and the word convert have very two distinct meanings and I'm surprised its taken you 3 pages to finally realise ... or perhaps a way out of what your originally wanted to say?

Come to Muslims and intersect marriage..

Take the example of Shia and Sunni. Why Sunnis are Sunnis and not Shia? Becasue they do not consider them to be on the right path....Sunnis think Shia have deviated from the actual teachings of Islam and vice versa. ie they both consider each other Kafir....deviated from the teachings of Islam..etc etc

[The one who says that each of the seventy-two sects is guilty of kufr that puts one beyond the pale of Islam is going against the Qur’aan and Sunnah and the consensus of the Sahaabah (may Allaah be pleased with them all), and the consensus of the four imams and others. None of them regarded any of the seventy-two sects as kaafirs, rather they regard one another as kaafirs.] (isnt that what U ahmed posted? Two sects bashing one another?)

in such situation you are bound to have religious conflicts if you marry ... however people who do not follow the teachings of their sects they should not have such problem...

First of all, not everyone belongs to a 'sect' and second of all, this is what I'm trying to point out, that we are muslims first and fore most (dont I sound like a broken record yet??) Your religion comes first and then your sect ...nuff said!

The Prophet (peace and blessings of Allaah be upon him) also described them in the following terms: “My ummah will split into seventy-three sects, all of whom will be in Hell except one group.” They said: Who are they, O Messenger of Allaah? He said: “(Those who follow) that which I and my companions follow.” This is mentioned in the hadeeth of ‘Abd-Allaah ibn ‘Amr which was recorded and classed as hasan by al-Tirmidhi (2641). It was also classed as hasan by al-‘Iraaqi in Ahkaam al-Qur’aan (3/432), al-‘Iraaqi in Takhreej al-Ihya’ (3/284) and al-Albaani in Saheeh al-Tirmidhi.

During his time there were no sects, muslim women married other muslim men .. it is as simple as that and if you can't comprehend, then what can I say, stick to your views.

The reason why our Khalifa banned the inter sect marriages were on the basis of principle and not on the basis of hatred.

Banned? Didn't you say it was allowed

You don't have sufficient reasoning to 'ban' something the quran and sunnah allowed in the first place ... otherwise it leads to bi'daa.

I have no such feelings. Allah has given the right to everyone to practice whatever they find suitable to their understanding.....No one can impose certain teachings on anyone...as Holy Quran says...Laa Ikraaha fidddeen...there is no compulsion in matter of faith....

The ayat talks about non-muslims. If it were the case of Muslims ... how could Sharia law be implemented?

I do not consider anyone to be out of the pale of Islam...but indeed there are few who do...and maybe you are one of them.

If you don't consider anybody out of the folds of Islam, how do you justify women being married off to Qurans? Or ppl doing to darbars and performing Sajdas on the graves of saints? and if you don't consider anybody else out of the pale of islam, then a 'ban' should have never been placed to begin with ... Islam comes first .. your sect second (or non at all, depending which one it is!)


Neways .. i'm getting tired of this .. convert .. not allowed to marry .. then allowed to marry ... bait ... ban
bleh .. aint worth my time .. each to their own.

I don't even know why ppl love their sects to such an extent ... id never give up my afterlife for some man looking for a few years of fame! Its clearly stated here whos going to Jannah ... an trust me, an 18th century scholar aint the one that gonna get you that first class ticket to jannah .. maybe the other way around

[This is the clearest sign that the Muslim can use to determine what is the saved group, so he should follow the way of the majority of scholars, those whom all the people testify are trustworthy and religiously-committed, and he should follow the way of the earlier scholars among the Sahaabah, Taabi’een and the four Imams and other scholars, and he should beware of every sect that differs from the main body of Muslims (jamaa’ah) by following innovation (bid’ah). ]

My reply was written quite fast, so I'm sorry if dont make sense .. just read the link I posted.

[d-tox..ed]

Inshallah will be back on Monday....my manger is off that week..lolz

My apologies...may be I have also been trying to reply in hurry...etc

This post has been edited by d-tox..ed: Jul 2 2010, 03:33 PM

[Inc0gnito]

Inshallah will be back on Monday....my manger is off that week..lolz

My apologies...may be I have also been trying to reply in hurry...etc

Oye. I am not off that week! Get back to work!

[d-tox..ed]

Oye. I am not off that week! Get back to work!

lolz....yes madam.....

[Inc0gnito]

I wonder what that new Messiah's name was. the one in the youtube video... u know, so I can assign a name to his followers.