Altaf Hussain With Pj Mir On Ahmadis Discrimination In Pakistan, Please stay on the video topic on hand. Options

[d-tox..ed]

I agree with Morg even though as much as I may differ with Ahmadi Muslims, Yes I'm no one to declare them non-muslims as they recite the same as Kalima as you all, have you guys forgot about the battle incident when a Muslim was about to kill a kafir and that kafir recited kalima that time but the guy still killed him and the Prophet Mohammad (saw) wasnt happy with that, saying did you see his heart if he recited that just out of fear?

Minorities in Pakistan should be given equal rights, no matter what, this is what my leader Jinnah said.

This discussion has started to go on in circles now but I'm willing to still keep it open if you people remain distant from each other throats.

Sir if you look at thread sub title then i asked everyone to stay on topic..abb sabb doosri baat pe uttar aate hian to mera kia kasoor...

good u r back on topic...i ll reply in more detail tomorrow Inshallah.

[DopeYmundA]

I agree with Morg even though as much as I may differ with Ahmadi Muslims, Yes I'm no one to declare them non-muslims as they recite the same as Kalima as you all, have you guys forgot about the battle incident when a Muslim was about to kill a kafir and that kafir recited kalima that time but the guy still killed him and the Prophet Mohammad (saw) wasnt happy with that, saying did you see his heart if he recited that just out of fear

brother, kafir and munafiq are two different things.

again lets stay on topic because i am sure the author didnt want it to be about the religious discussion but about how much zulim they have to suffer in Pakistan.

[d-tox..ed]

brother, kafir and munafiq are two different things.

again lets stay on topic because i am sure the author didnt want it to be about the religious discussion but about how much zulim they have to suffer in Pakistan.

to be frank I think Shia's are in much more difficult condistion then Ahmadies. But Shia Sunni extremism has been there for centuries. And perhaps we should also consider them minority when it comes to talk to about equal rights and opportunities.

[CharteredAccount...]

The amount of hatred against Ahmadis is overwhelming. And this has occured generally in Pakistan. They are considered as if they are not humans and intense propaganda exists against them.

It disgusts me that Pakistan's basics was to allow everyone freedom of worship .. but minorities get targeted. No wonder muslims all around the world are so many yet so powerless. We cannot even sette disputes among oursleves, let alone countering anti-Islam forces of the world.

Ahmadis are non-muslim by my standards and I am a non-muslims by thier standards. However I look at things beyond Pakistani and beyond muslim. I look at myself and others as an insaan. How good or bad particular human being is?

[DopeYmundA]

^ sahib what you are saying is right but yah pakistan may ya hota ha or wo hota hai wala rona band keran. we the ppl make this nation we need to change first and then change will come. Khud to hum america may ya europe may beethay hain and then expect our jahil nation to act as we wish! Bring the change and do something about it.

[d-tox..ed]

^ sahib what you are saying is right but yah pakistan may ya hota ha or wo hota hai wala rona band keran. we the ppl make this nation we need to change first and then change will come. Khud to hum america may ya europe may beethay hain and then expect our jahil nation to act as we wish! Bring the change and do something about it.

yeah thats more like it...now for example...i have graduated in Software Engineering in UK...and I always think how can I help my country?...I dont mind no electricity..food crises..water crisis...terrorist attacks...as our brothers and sisters go through this everyday...however the only thing put me off is that even if I think of moving to Pakistan..I wont be able to practice my faith freely and safely.

If Goverment can bring back Law abiding nation rights and equal opportunities for everyone Hindu, Muslim, Sikh, Christan alike then I think I will move back home.

The amount of hatred against Ahmadis is overwhelming. And this has occured generally in Pakistan. They are considered as if they are not humans and intense propaganda exists against them.

It disgusts me that Pakistan's basics was to allow everyone freedom of worship .. but minorities get targeted. No wonder muslims all around the world are so many yet so powerless. We cannot even sette disputes among oursleves, let alone countering anti-Islam forces of the world.

Ahmadis are non-muslim by my standards and I am a non-muslims by thier standards. However I look at things beyond Pakistani and beyond muslim. I look at myself and others as an insaan. How good or bad particular human being is?

To be frank I wouldnt go into contraversial details of who is Muslim and who is Not. But we never call anyone non Muslim who says he is a Muslim.

[Inc0gnito]

To be frank I wouldnt go into contraversial details of who is Muslim and who is Not. But we never call anyone non Muslim who says he is a Muslim.

haha But your Mirza Did! Bisti ho gaee.

I think the "conflict" With Ahmadis is not about rights. There is a REASON why they are deprived rights to practice Islam. It is a consequence of a bigger problem. What is it?

[d-tox..ed]

haha But your Mirza Did! Bisti ho gaee.

I think the "conflict" With Ahmadis is not about rights. There is a REASON why they are deprived rights to practice Islam. It is a consequence of a bigger problem. What is it?

bache tumhien lagta hai shaaid mien tumhaari tarah subha moon dhoye bagair gadhe pe beth ke ghar se nikalta hoon..par esi koi baat nahin...

GIVE ME A PROOF WHERE HADHRAT SB WROTE THAT THE ONE WHO DOESNT BELIEVE IN HIM IS A NON-MUSLIM. (do bear in mind there can be a huge difference in word Non Muslim and Kafir Muslim)

[Inc0gnito]

GIVE ME A PROOF WHERE HADHRAT SB WROTE THAT THE ONE WHO DOESNT BELIEVE IN HIM IS A NON-MUSLIM. (do bear in mind there can be a huge difference in word Non Muslim and Kafir Muslim)

Whats a Kafir Muslim!? hahahha No. He didn't use the word "Kafir Muslim".

[d-tox..ed]

Whats a Kafir Muslim!? hahahha No. He didn't use the word "Kafir Muslim".

wese bhi ye Kafir ka lafz tumhaari soch se thora sa bara hai issi lyye shaaid abhi samjh nahin aaye ga.

PROOF BACHE PROOF LAAO.

This post has been edited by d-tox..ed: Nov 5 2009, 10:23 AM

[Inc0gnito]

wese bhi ye Kafir ka lafz tumhaari soch se thora sa bara hai issi lyye shaaid abhi samjh nahin aaye ga.

"All Muslims regard my books with reverence and care and benefit from their sublime thoughts except those who are the offspring of prostitutes (*******s); God has put a seal upon their hearts and they do not accept me."
(Aeena-e-Kamalat Islam, P.547-548;
Roohany Khazaen, Vol. 5, Page 547-548)

So according to Ahmadi beliefs what are we again?

I can provide more on this... too much infact.

Here's more evidence of what exactly us "Regular Old Muhammadans" are in Ahmadi views:
1. "He who gives his daughter in marriage to any non-Qadiani is a non-Ahmadi, even though he may call himself Ahmadi... It is also forbidden for our followers to participate in such marriage gathering."
(Al-Fazl, Qadian, May 23, 1931)
2. "There is no harm if you marry a non-Ahmadi girl because it is allowed to marry women of the people of the Book... But an Ahmadi girl should not be given to a non-Ahmadi. There is no harm in accepting their girl but it is a sin to give them a girl."
(Al-Fazl, Qadian, Dec. 16, 1920)

^You see. They treat us EXACTLY like muslims treat Non-Muslims.

You people are even forbidden to pray behind us "Muslims"

* "It is my considered religion: it is not permitted that you should offer prayer led by a non-Qadiani in any place whatsoever, whosoever he may be and however respected among the people he may be. This is an order from Allah and this is what Allah expects of you. Those who doubt this are considered deniers. Allah desires that a distinction be made between you and them."
(Al-Fazl, Qadian, Aug. 28, 1917)
* "God has revealed to me that it is forbidden - strictly forbidden - that you should say prayers led by one who believes me to be a liar or is wavering in his allegiance to me. Instead it enjoined upon you that you should follow an Imam from amongst you."
(Arbaeen, Vol. 3, P. 28; "Tuhfa-e-Golarwiah", P. 27, Mirza Ghulam Qadiani)
* "No Qadiani is allowed to say prayers which are led by a non-Qadiani. People have asked this question again and again - is it permissible to pray behind them? I would say, whenever I am asked, it is not allowed for any Qadiani to pray behind a non-Qadiani. It is forbidden - not permitted - prohibited."
(Anwar-e-Khilafat, P. 93)

Let me know should you require more evidence. lol. I just find it really funny that Ahmadis have declared the rest of the world's muslims as Non-muslims since 1902 - while the state of Pakistan has declared Ahmadis as non-muslims since 1974.

This post has been edited by Inc0gnito: Nov 5 2009, 11:33 AM

[Nara-e-Mastana]

"All Muslims regard my books with reverence and care and benefit from their sublime thoughts except those who are the offspring of prostitutes (*******s); God has put a seal upon their hearts and they do not accept me."
(Aeena-e-Kamalat Islam, P.547-548;
Roohany Khazaen, Vol. 5, Page 547-548)

what kind of language is this? it really shows that character of your fake nabi....
And one more thing....also explain the meaning of this word"seal" here....it also mean that " law bearning seal" right???

dramay baaz....

[d-tox..ed]

"All Muslims regard my books with reverence and care and benefit from their sublime thoughts except those who are the offspring of prostitutes (*******s); God has put a seal upon their hearts and they do not accept me."
(Aeena-e-Kamalat Islam, P.547-548;
Roohany Khazaen, Vol. 5, Page 547-548)

So according to Ahmadi beliefs what are we again?

jee jee Sir..Janaab...I asked that you provide me the proof that where did Hadhrat Mirza Ghulam Ahmad (A.S) wrote that the one who doesnt believe in him is N O N - M U S L I M ?

And you came up with this?

So you are telling me that Hadhrat sb (A.S) wrote that he who does not believe in him is an offspring of prostitute? Well in the reference you provided Hadhrat sahin (A.S) used the work Z U R R I Y A T U L B A G A Y A.....now if you want to translate this word as off spring of prostiture then so be it...its none of my business you have right to call your self whatever you like. But just for your information you are doing the wrong translation. Now if you want me to give you more details on this then I am write them here or PM you.

This reference again didnt include what I asked for!

I can provide more on this... too much infact.

Here's more evidence of what exactly us "Regular Old Muhammadans" are in Ahmadi views:
1. "He who gives his daughter in marriage to any non-Qadiani is a non-Ahmadi, even though he may call himself Ahmadi... It is also forbidden for our followers to participate in such marriage gathering."
(Al-Fazl, Qadian, May 23, 1931)
2. "There is no harm if you marry a non-Ahmadi girl because it is allowed to marry women of the people of the Book... But an Ahmadi girl should not be given to a non-Ahmadi. There is no harm in accepting their girl but it is a sin to give them a girl."
(Al-Fazl, Qadian, Dec. 16, 1920)

^You see. They treat us EXACTLY like muslims treat Non-Muslims.

So where does it call you N O N - M U S L I M?

"You people are even forbidden to pray behind us "Muslims"

* "It is my considered religion: it is not permitted that you should offer prayer led by a non-Qadiani in any place whatsoever, whosoever he may be and however respected among the people he may be. This is an order from Allah and this is what Allah expects of you. Those who doubt this are considered deniers. Allah desires that a distinction be made between you and them."
(Al-Fazl, Qadian, Aug. 28, 1917)
* "God has revealed to me that it is forbidden - strictly forbidden - that you should say prayers led by one who believes me to be a liar or is wavering in his allegiance to me. Instead it enjoined upon you that you should follow an Imam from amongst you."
(Arbaeen, Vol. 3, P. 28; "Tuhfa-e-Golarwiah", P. 27, Mirza Ghulam Qadiani)
* "No Qadiani is allowed to say prayers which are led by a non-Qadiani. People have asked this question again and again - is it permissible to pray behind them? I would say, whenever I am asked, it is not allowed for any Qadiani to pray behind a non-Qadiani. It is forbidden - not permitted - prohibited."
(Anwar-e-Khilafat, P. 93)

Let me know should you require more evidence. lol. I just find it really funny that Ahmadis have declared the rest of the world's muslims as Non-muslims since 1902 - while the state of Pakistan has declared Ahmadis as non-muslims since 1974.

Would Y O U actually pray behind an A H M A D I iman?

Again where in your references it call you N O N - M U S L I M?

what kind of language is this? it really shows that character of your fake nabi....
And one more thing....also explain the meaning of this word"seal" here....it also mean that " law bearning seal" right???

dramay baaz....

janaab...mene InCognito ko abhi reply kia hai...aap samjhien ke mene aapko bhi ussi reply mien add kar dia hai....SEAL ka matlab bhi bataa dien gai pehle NON MUSLIM ka masla hal kar lien.

[Inc0gnito]

Would Y O U actually pray behind an A H M A D I iman?

No I would not pray behind any ahmadi because they are NOT muslims. Why would an Ahmadi not Pray behind me?

[d-tox..ed]

No I would not pray behind any ahmadi because they are NOT muslims. Why would an Ahmadi not Pray behind me?

Becasue you have rejected a Prophet of Allah. How can I pray behind a person who rejects what Allah sends? When you pray behind an Imam it means you are affirming him to be your leader and how can I pray behind a person who rejects what Allah bestows upon him.

Now come back to the Question: W H E R E did Hadhrat Mirza Ghulam Ahmad (A.S) wrote that the people who do not accept him are N O N - M U S L I M S?

This post has been edited by d-tox..ed: Nov 6 2009, 09:24 AM

[Inc0gnito]

Becasue you have rejected a Prophet of Allah. How can I pray behind a person who rejects what Allah sends? When you pray behind an Imam it means you are affirming him to be your leader and how can I pray behind a person who rejects what Allah bestows upon him.

Now come back to the Question: W H E R E did Hadhrat Mirza Ghulam Ahmad (A.S) wrote that the people who do not accept him are N O N - M U S L I M S?

Ruko Ruko Ruko. I am coming back to your question - So I rejected YOUR "Prophet" - What does that make me in your eyes? You cannot even now Pray behind me - Or wed your daughter to me. Am I a muslim in your eyes?

[d-tox..ed]

Ruko Ruko Ruko. I am coming back to your question - So I rejected YOUR "Prophet" - What does that make me in your eyes? You cannot even now Pray behind me - Or wed your daughter to me. Am I a muslim in your eyes?

Ok ok ok...rukk gia..yaar aap to ese keh rahe ho jese mien bus driver hoon orr aapko dekhte saare hi mene bass bhagaa di orr peeche awaazien de rahe ho o bhaaya ruko ruko ruko mujhe bhi jaana hai..lolz

ok to serious end.

Look the rule is pretty simple...infact there is a sahi hadith as well that when in one battle one sahaabi killed an enemy who recited Kalima and told Holy Prophet SAW and he SAW went so anry that he asked did you open that guys heart to see if he recited the Kalima from fear or in real...(I am sure there will be many more examples) but as per hadith anyone who recites Kalima is a Muslim as per Jamaat Ahmadiyya teaching...however becasue you reject one Prophet we call you Kafir...becasue you reject something which you should be accepting...as per your own believe you are supposed to accept the Mahdi and Messiah and you reject him hence you are Kafir of Mahdi and Messiah...I suggest google on word Kafir.

So tell me does other Muslims give their daughters to Ahmadies?..obviously not... Do other Muslims offer prayer behind Ahmadies ... some do but mainly not.... Do Sunni offer prayer behind Shia? or vice versa...or does Ahle Sunnabehind prayer behind Deobandi?...and your answer is no...so whats the point when you cant even make one registered MUSLIM pray behind another registrered Muslim and you come and ask me who in your eyes is Not even a Muslim! As per same Hadith Hazoor SAW also said to Sahabi what will you when his Kalima will give testimony against you at the day of judgement?...Again I would say the same thing as our beloved aaqa Hadhrat Muhammad Mustapha SAW said what will you when my Kalima will speak against you at the the day of judgement? You will not be able to run away nor hide behind PC.

[Inc0gnito]

So tell me does other Muslims give their daughters to Ahmadies?..obviously not... Do other Muslims offer prayer behind Ahmadies ... some do but mainly not.... Do Sunni offer prayer behind Shia? or vice versa...or does Ahle Sunnabehind prayer behind Deobandi?...and your answer is no...so whats the point when you cant even make one registered MUSLIM pray behind another registrered Muslim and you come and ask me who in your eyes is Not even a Muslim! As per same Hadith Hazoor SAW also said to Sahabi what will you when his Kalima will give testimony against you at the day of judgement?...Again I would say the same thing as our beloved aaqa Hadhrat Muhammad Mustapha SAW said what will you when my Kalima will speak against you at the the day of judgement? You will not be able to run away nor hide behind PC.

The fact of the matter is, yes - I have seen Shiites offer prayers behind Sunnis. I've seen Sunnis wed their daughters to Shiites. The argument with Shiites is not about "Who is the Prophet?" Its simply who is the successor? So, in essence what you see happening here is that Sunnis and Shiites alike acknowledge that the other IS a muslim - there are exceptions on both sides who don't - but like I said they are the Exception - not the norm.

What the Ahmadis are doing is total isolation. They consider EVERY muslim as a "NON-MUSLIM" - Except the ones who believe in their own prophet. What I do not understand is why you are afraid of coming out and saying it openly? I've had this discussion with many Ahmadis before and they never had a problem in coming straight up and saying that "Yes. Ahmadis believe every Non-Ahmadi is a Non-Muslim." simple. Clear. Precise. Why are you afraid? lol.

[modern_newton]

Now come back to the Question: W H E R E did Hadhrat Mirza Ghulam Ahmad (A.S) wrote that the people who do not accept him are N O N - M U S L I M S?

Read book Truth about the split from ur own website By
Mirza Bashiruddin Mahmud Ahmad
Khalifatul Masih II

Page 59 of the book and page 73 and 74 of pdf reader
http://www.alislam.org/library/books/Truth...t-the-Split.pdf

As for the question of Kufr (unbelief) of non-
Ahmadi Muslims, my belief is that Kufr really arises
from a denial of God. Hence, whenever there comes
any revelation from God of such a nature that its
acceptance is obligatory on every man, a rejection of
the same leads to Kufr.

Belief in such a revelation,
however, presupposes belief in the bearer of the
revelation. Hence it follows that a belief in the bearer
60 Truth about the Split
of such revelation is a necessary part of one’s faith.
The man who rejects a Prophet thus necessarily
becomes a kafir, not because he denies the truth of
any particular Prophet X or Y, but such denial will
necessarily lead him to reject a revelation of God. To
me, the Kufr which arises from the denial of any Nabi
has its basis in this principle and not in any personal
quality of the Nabi. And inasmuch as the revelation of
which the acceptance is obligatory on mankind comes
only through Prophets, it is the rejection of such
recipients of Divine revelation, and not of others that
leads to unbelief. Now, as we hold that the revelation
which came to the Promised Messiahas are such that
their acceptance is obligatory on mankind in general,
to us, the man who rejects the Promised Messiahas is a
kafir agreeably to the teachings of the Holy Quran,
although he may well be a believer in all the other
truths of religion because the presence even of one of
the necessary conditions of Kufr is sufficient to make
a man kafir.

This post has been edited by modern_newton: Nov 7 2009, 01:17 AM

[d-tox..ed]

Read book Truth about the split from ur own website By
Mirza Bashiruddin Mahmud Ahmad
Khalifatul Masih II

Page 59 of the book and page 73 and 74 of pdf reader
http://www.alislam.org/library/books/Truth...t-the-Split.pdf

As for the question of Kufr (unbelief) of non-
Ahmadi Muslims, my belief is that Kufr really arises
from a denial of God. Hence, whenever there comes
any revelation from God of such a nature that its
acceptance is obligatory on every man, a rejection of
the same leads to Kufr.

Belief in such a revelation,
however, presupposes belief in the bearer of the
revelation. Hence it follows that a belief in the bearer
60 Truth about the Split
of such revelation is a necessary part of one’s faith.
The man who rejects a Prophet thus necessarily
becomes a kafir, not because he denies the truth of
any particular Prophet X or Y, but such denial will
necessarily lead him to reject a revelation of God. To
me, the Kufr which arises from the denial of any Nabi
has its basis in this principle and not in any personal
quality of the Nabi. And inasmuch as the revelation of
which the acceptance is obligatory on mankind comes
only through Prophets, it is the rejection of such
recipients of Divine revelation, and not of others that
leads to unbelief. Now, as we hold that the revelation
which came to the Promised Messiahas are such that
their acceptance is obligatory on mankind in general,
to us, the man who rejects the Promised Messiahas is a
kafir agreeably to the teachings of the Holy Quran,
although he may well be a believer in all the other
truths of religion because the presence even of one of
the necessary conditions of Kufr is sufficient to make
a man kafir.

janaab janaab janaab...Kafir or kufr ka lafz istemaal hua hai NON MUSLIM ka kahan likha hai?

Infact please view the bold part of your post again which say non Ahmadi MUSLIM!

The fact of the matter is, yes - I have seen Shiites offer prayers behind Sunnis. I've seen Sunnis wed their daughters to Shiites. The argument with Shiites is not about "Who is the Prophet?" Its simply who is the successor? So, in essence what you see happening here is that Sunnis and Shiites alike acknowledge that the other IS a muslim - there are exceptions on both sides who don't - but like I said they are the Exception - not the norm.

What the Ahmadis are doing is total isolation. They consider EVERY muslim as a "NON-MUSLIM" - Except the ones who believe in their own prophet. What I do not understand is why you are afraid of coming out and saying it openly? I've had this discussion with many Ahmadis before and they never had a problem in coming straight up and saying that "Yes. Ahmadis believe every Non-Ahmadi is a Non-Muslim." simple. Clear. Precise. Why are you afraid? lol.

we dont consider you Non Muslim and I just presented the hadith...perhaps you are looking for properly cited Hadith?

Now if you want me to show you what Muslim sects think about each other then I can give you YouTube links with hate filled videos and fatwas...and this is also what we say that in 1974 in all of 72 sects called each other Kafir and Non Muslim in Parliament and we challenge the Goverment to publish the proceeding...but guess what they wont!

So if you still think we consider you Non Muslim then this is wrong and a Lie. We only consider you kafir of Mahdi and Messiah...

now you know I can carry on repeating what I am saying till forever now its upto you if you want to accept this fact or carry on repeating the same thing.

This post has been edited by d-tox..ed: Nov 7 2009, 03:17 AM

[MzAflatoon]

janaab janaab janaab...Kafir or kufr ka lafz istemaal hua hai NON MUSLIM ka kahan likha hai?

Infact please view the bold part of your post again which say non Ahmadi MUSLIM!

Detox, that really gave me a good chuckle

I can't wait for Asad to read that actually .. haha =))) Kafir kia hota hai? An infidel, a non-believer! The second passage that MN highlighted clearly states that rejectors of MGA are kafirs.

Khair, jokes apart, I get it. It's like when we say that whoever rejects Allah's msg and his Prophet (SAW) is a 'kafir', because according to Ahmaddiya belief, there is a messenger after Mohammad (SAW), he becomes part of Islam the deen. And since deen/Islam is all encompassing, you have to accept each and every messenger. Hence by rejecting MGA, you are not following the entire msg. I see how that would make sense according to your belief.

But dude, seriously, it says Kafir lol I can't believe you just tried to play it off like that ..

[modern_newton]

janaab janaab janaab...Kafir or kufr ka lafz istemaal hua hai NON MUSLIM ka kahan likha hai?

Infact please view the bold part of your post again which say non Ahmadi MUSLIM!

I want to know that If mirza Ghulam ahmad claimed to be promised messiah of jews, christian,muslims and also claimed to be reincarnation of hindu karishna then Ahamdi should not mind calling themselves ahmadi hindu, ahmdi-christian, Ahmadi jews because Ghulam ahmad sub ka messiah tha.

and let me tell you the difference between non muslim snd kafir

If a non muslim know what is islam and you give him invitation and messege of islam and he refuse to believe in islam and reject it then he become kafir
but if he never get the messege of islam and dont know about islam then he remain non muslim.. Kafirs are those non muslims who know islam but reject it
Now tell us who are we after we know about ur prophet and reject him?
Rest i will discuss tomorrow...i am sleepy

This post has been edited by modern_newton: Nov 7 2009, 04:23 AM

[d-tox..ed]

I want to know that If mirza Ghulam ahmad claimed to be promised messiah of jews, christian,muslims and also claimed to be reincarnation of hindu karishna then Ahamdi should not mind calling themselves ahmadi hindu, ahmdi-christian, Ahmadi jews because Ghulam ahmad sub ka messiah tha.

and let me tell you the difference between non muslim snd kafir

If a non muslim know what is islam and you give him invitation and messege of islam and he refuse to believe in islam and reject it then he become kafir
but if he never get the messege of islam and dont know about islam then he remain non muslim.. Kafirs are those non muslims who know islam but reject it
Now tell us who are we after we know about ur prophet and reject him?
Rest i will discuss tomorrow...i am sleepy

Jews had their Messiah called Jesus A.S

Muslims have their Messiah called Mirza Ghulam Ahmad (A.S)

Moses and Jesus (A.S) although were Prophet of Allah but their message was not for whole mankind. However Hadhrat Muhammad SAW is a universal Prophet and his Messiah is also for everyone.

If one calls themselves Muslims and dont agree to 5 daily prayers then as per his attitude you cannot call him a Non Muslim but you can call him a Kafir....The word Kafir is a very broad term. I suggest you good reading on this word. Muslim and Non Muslim are not generic and are very to the point however the word Kafir can have many abbreviations. Infact you suggested few as well.

Detox, that really gave me a good chuckle

I can't wait for Asad to read that actually .. haha =))) Kafir kia hota hai? An infidel, a non-believer! The second passage that MN highlighted clearly states that rejectors of MGA are kafirs.

Khair, jokes apart, I get it. It's like when we say that whoever rejects Allah's msg and his Prophet (SAW) is a 'kafir', because according to Ahmaddiya belief, there is a messenger after Mohammad (SAW), he becomes part of Islam the deen. And since deen/Islam is all encompassing, you have to accept each and every messenger. Hence by rejecting MGA, you are not following the entire msg. I see how that would make sense according to your belief.

But dude, seriously, it says Kafir lol I can't believe you just tried to play it off like that ..

You got most of it right...but I guess word kafir is playing up on you.

[Ayesha_786]

PROOF BACHE PROOF LAAO.

Here's the P R O O F Bachay !
http://www.ahmadiyya.org/qadis/takfir1.htm

So do wee "Naoo'zubillah" need to sign the following to embrace ISLAM ?

This post has been edited by Ayesha_786: Nov 7 2009, 07:24 AM

[Chamomile]

To Ahmadi Fellows:

Why do being an Ahmadi you need to give proof to whole world specially on MP that you are Muslim? it doesn't matter really.. its the acts and doings that make us muslim and it will show to the world any way no matter what anyone say.. I am teaching A levels Islam from last one year here in UK along with my own field of Maths and really I dont feel the need any more to give a proof to anyone of what I believe and follow.. and if the pakistan laws or mostly my fellow pakistanis dont believe us as Muslims.. then i really dont care anymore.

It really is no point personally to see a 9 page thread that too off topic mostly :S

its just nice to see that people stand against violence no matter in whatever form and on whoever it is..

there are better ways to preach than posting here and wasting time guys! so chill!!

Salam!

This post has been edited by Chamomile: Nov 7 2009, 12:54 PM

[MzAflatoon]

You got most of it right...but I guess word kafir is playing up on you.

It's quite the opposite actually. It doesn't bother me that MGA called me a kafir. That doesn't hurt my ego or put a dent in my Islam. What is bothering me though is that you wont accept he said it or that that is the accepted belief of Jamat-e-Ahmadiya.

On a side note though, incase, someone unfamiliar with islam is reading, the rest of us muslims do not consider a man/woman who declares the shahadah, accepts Mohammad (SAW) as God's msngr and Allah, himself as the 'one' god, a kafir.

[Inc0gnito]

So you are telling me that Hadhrat sb (A.S) wrote that he who does not believe in him is an offspring of prostitute? Well in the reference you provided Hadhrat sahin (A.S) used the word Z U R R I Y A T U L B A G A Y A .....now if you want to translate this word as off spring of prostiture then so be it...its none of my business you have right to call your self whatever you like. But just for your information you are doing the wrong translation. Now if you want me to give you more details on this then I am write them here or PM you.

I just ran it by 2 Arabic professors. Zurriyat ul Bagaya means ... drum roll please ... "Offspring Of Hooker/Prostitute/Woman of Zina/B4stard". Keep in mind these 2 guys have no clue where the passage is coming from. Therefore their answers are completely unbiased. What say you?

[modern_newton]

Jews had their Messiah called Jesus A.S

Muslims have their Messiah called Mirza Ghulam Ahmad (A.S)

I think you are confuse and its not ur fault my friend but Ahmadism is all about confusion...
your MIRZA claimed the second coming of jesus? Did not he?
He claimed that he is the one hindu,christian,jews,muslims are waiting to get as much followers as possible from all major religons but sad only a few followers of these religons gave any credibility to his claims

Moses and Jesus (A.S) although were Prophet of Allah but their message was not for whole mankind. However Hadhrat Muhammad SAW is a universal Prophet and his Messiah is also for everyone.

If one calls themselves Muslims and dont agree to 5 daily prayers then as per his attitude you cannot call him a Non Muslim but you can call him a Kafir....The word Kafir is a very broad term. I suggest you good reading on this word. Muslim and Non Muslim are not generic and are very to the point however the word Kafir can have many abbreviations. Infact you suggested few as well.
You got most of it right...but I guess word kafir is playing up on you.

First of all my dear would you plz define word"muslim"? What is your defination of "Muslim"? Will i be consider muslim if i dont believe in MIrza.? IF i am muslim even if i dont belive in mirza then why anyone should have believe in him when having believe or disbelieve in him dont make any difference to their imaan?
If a person believe in ALLAH ,believe in all prophets including Prophet Muhammad(PBUH) and consider prophet muhammad(PBUH) as last Prophet(not the way you guys percieve finality of Prophethood) and have firm believe that no Prophet will come after him, believe in all holy books which ALLAH sent for guidance of mankind, believe in life hereafter,believe in angels/hell/heaven etc
BUT he dont agree with five prayers then we cannot call him non muslim. True There are many muslims who are not offering five prayers and we cannot say that they are non muslims
But we all know the importance of salah in islam and it is obligatory for muslims to offer salah and they cannot put forward an excuse to deny this obligation but if they neglect salah because of laziness then they are sinner but if they deny that Salah is obligatory for muslims and deny the importance of offering Salah which is mentioned in the Holy Quran then they go against the teaching of ALLAH and his book and that is the sign of kufar or disbelive as many hadiths suggest.

There are many Christian and jews who know the messege of islam but dont believe in Prophet Muahmmad(PBUH) and Holy Quran . They are also kafirs while those who dont know about islam and never heard the messege of islam. They are non muslim. If kafir believe in more than one GOD and associate partners with GOD then he also become mushrik.

Now some of the disputes among muslims are only doctrinal while some of them are actually because of the matter of faith. The doctrinal issues are those in which two people do agree with a directive but dispute on how to implement it and these disputes caused five basic sects to emerge namely hanafi, shafai, maliki, hanbali and jaafri and some of the disputes among us are faith based disputes and example is that of Twelver Shias which are called Ithnae-Ashari Shias. They beleive in twelve imams and ascribe to them the same status as that of a prophets and then second example is that of Quadianis. They have taken one word of Quran, mis-translated it and violated the Arabic usage of that word and believe in the (false)prophethood of Mirza Ghulam Ahmad. Now our scholars consider you kafirs because you guys reject the finality of Prophethood and add extra prophet with ur belief and insult jesus by saying that he is buried in Kasmir and mirza ji is the second coming of him. You guys also consider us kafir because we reject claim of MIRZ Ghulam but instead of accepting this fact and major differences among us, you are pretending that we are same and you are exaclty same muslim as non Ahamdi. I personally(based on whatever I have studied about religion)do not consider Mirza Ghulam to be any type of a religious figure. I consider making him a religious figure a violation of my understanding of my religion. I consider Prophet Muhammad(PBUH) to be the last prophet in every form, way and manner. However, that is just my belief, which I can, and do apply on myself. I dont consider the need to apply that belief onto someone, who happens to holds a different belief than mine.

Now i give you simple example to explain our position

Let suppose that tomorrow you get a new prophet X call himself Ahmad like MIRZA and he also come up with same claims of mirza ji and his followers also start claiming themselves as Ahmadi muslims then what would be ur reactions? Would you consider the folllowers of that man as Ahmadi muslim? If you do that then i am sure you know that it will confuse you and also those who want to convert into Ahmadism and if you do consider them non Ahamdi then you should not cry when we have same treatment with you on same basis...you should think about it.

You know the messege of Prophet Muhammad(PBUH) was not any different than the messege of previous prophets but he did not said that he did bring christianity or judism but he said that he brought islam and his followers called themselves muslims.. Why? Why muslims did not said that they are christian or jews? Why they had different name when messge was same ?

Now ur Ghulam Ahmad did bring something new and he hijacked the name of my religon islam. Why? What was wrong if he say that here i am ur new prophet and here is my religon Ahmadism and believe in me and you will be the followers of true religon ahamadism or qadyaaniyat whatever. Then there WOULD not be any tentions, problems. We boht get save from confusion just like i saved christian from confusion when i say that i am muslim and you are christian. I belive in prophet muhammad(PBUH) while you dont..Humare rastey aur manzalein juda

To Ahmadi Fellows:

Why do being an Ahmadi you need to give proof to whole world specially on MP .. I am teaching A levels Islam from last one year here in UK along with my own field of Maths

what islam do you teach Sir?
Islam brought by Prophet Muahmmad(PBUH) or Hazrat Ghulam Ahmad?

This post has been edited by modern_newton: Nov 7 2009, 09:22 PM

[d-tox..ed]

Here's the P R O O F Bachay !
http://www.ahmadiyya.org/qadis/takfir1.htm

So do wee "Naoo'zubillah" need to sign the following to embrace ISLAM ?

so where does it says that who so ever does not believe in Hadhrat Mirza Ghulam Ahmad is a NON MUSLIM?

To Ahmadi Fellows:

Why do being an Ahmadi you need to give proof to whole world specially on MP that you are Muslim? it doesn't matter really.. its the acts and doings that make us muslim and it will show to the world any way no matter what anyone say.. I am teaching A levels Islam from last one year here in UK along with my own field of Maths and really I dont feel the need any more to give a proof to anyone of what I believe and follow.. and if the pakistan laws or mostly my fellow pakistanis dont believe us as Muslims.. then i really dont care anymore.

It really is no point personally to see a 9 page thread that too off topic mostly :S

its just nice to see that people stand against violence no matter in whatever form and on whoever it is..

there are better ways to preach than posting here and wasting time guys! so chill!!

Salam!

Hello there...nice to see you...I am actually not giving any proof...as a matter of fact you can surely seen the discussion has deviated from the original topic...perhaps not my fault as some of my old friends love to have fun and making a mockery out of any thread I start...lolz...but as you rightly said i dont have to give proof nor i am...infact i am just correcting them by saying that we do not consider you NON MUSLIM.

It's quite the opposite actually. It doesn't bother me that MGA called me a kafir. That doesn't hurt my ego or put a dent in my Islam. What is bothering me though is that you wont accept he said it or that that is the accepted belief of Jamat-e-Ahmadiya.

On a side note though, incase, someone unfamiliar with islam is reading, the rest of us muslims do not consider a man/woman who declares the shahadah, accepts Mohammad (SAW) as God's msngr and Allah, himself as the 'one' god, a kafir.

well I am not in state of deny-al...perhaps its slightly opposite...no one has brought me a single passage from any of our books saying that who so ever does not believe in Hadhrat Mirza Ghulam Ahmad is NON MUSLIM.

I think you are confuse and its not ur fault my friend but Ahmadism is all about confusion...
your MIRZA claimed the second coming of jesus? Did not he?
He claimed that he is the one hindu,christian,jews,muslims are waiting to get as much followers as possible from all major religons but sad only a few followers of these religons gave any credibility to his claims

First of all my dear would you plz define word"muslim"? What is your defination of "Muslim"? Will i be consider muslim if i dont believe in MIrza.? IF i am muslim even if i dont belive in mirza then why anyone should have believe in him when having believe or disbelieve in him dont make any difference to their imaan?
If a person believe in ALLAH ,believe in all prophets including Prophet Muhammad(PBUH) and consider prophet muhammad(PBUH) as last Prophet(not the way you guys percieve finality of Prophethood) and have firm believe that no Prophet will come after him, believe in all holy books which ALLAH sent for guidance of mankind, believe in life hereafter,believe in angels/hell/heaven etc
BUT he dont agree with five prayers then we cannot call him non muslim. True There are many muslims who are not offering five prayers and we cannot say that they are non muslims
But we all know the importance of salah in islam and it is obligatory for muslims to offer salah and they cannot put forward an excuse to deny this obligation but if they neglect salah because of laziness then they are sinner but if they deny that Salah is obligatory for muslims and deny the importance of offering Salah which is mentioned in the Holy Quran then they go against the teaching of ALLAH and his book and that is the sign of kufar or disbelive as many hadiths suggest.

There are many Christian and jews who know the messege of islam but dont believe in Prophet Muahmmad(PBUH) and Holy Quran . They are also kafirs while those who dont know about islam and never heard the messege of islam. They are non muslim. If kafir believe in more than one GOD and associate partners with GOD then he also become mushrik.

Now some of the disputes among muslims are only doctrinal while some of them are actually because of the matter of faith. The doctrinal issues are those in which two people do agree with a directive but dispute on how to implement it and these disputes caused five basic sects to emerge namely hanafi, shafai, maliki, hanbali and jaafri and some of the disputes among us are faith based disputes and example is that of Twelver Shias which are called Ithnae-Ashari Shias. They beleive in twelve imams and ascribe to them the same status as that of a prophets and then second example is that of Quadianis. They have taken one word of Quran, mis-translated it and violated the Arabic usage of that word and believe in the (false)prophethood of Mirza Ghulam Ahmad. Now our scholars consider you kafirs because you guys reject the finality of Prophethood and add extra prophet with ur belief and insult jesus by saying that he is buried in Kasmir and mirza ji is the second coming of him. You guys also consider us kafir because we reject claim of MIRZ Ghulam but instead of accepting this fact and major differences among us, you are pretending that we are same and you are exaclty same muslim as non Ahamdi. I personally(based on whatever I have studied about religion)do not consider Mirza Ghulam to be any type of a religious figure. I consider making him a religious figure a violation of my understanding of my religion. I consider Prophet Muhammad(PBUH) to be the last prophet in every form, way and manner. However, that is just my belief, which I can, and do apply on myself. I dont consider the need to apply that belief onto someone, who happens to holds a different belief than mine.

Now i give you simple example to explain our position

Let suppose that tomorrow you get a new prophet X call himself Ahmad like MIRZA and he also come up with same claims of mirza ji and his followers also start claiming themselves as Ahmadi muslims then what would be ur reactions? Would you consider the folllowers of that man as Ahmadi muslim? If you do that then i am sure you know that it will confuse you and also those who want to convert into Ahmadism and if you do consider them non Ahamdi then you should not cry when we have same treatment with you on same basis...you should think about it.

You know the messege of Prophet Muhammad(PBUH) was not any different than the messege of previous prophets but he did not said that he did bring christianity or judism but he said that he brought islam and his followers called themselves muslims.. Why? Why muslims did not said that they are christian or jews? Why they had different name when messge was same ?

Now ur Ghulam Ahmad did bring something new and he hijacked the name of my religon islam. Why? What was wrong if he say that here i am ur new prophet and here is my religon Ahmadism and believe in me and you will be the followers of true religon ahamadism or qadyaaniyat whatever. Then there WOULD not be any tentions, problems. We boht get save from confusion just like i saved christian from confusion when i say that i am muslim and you are christian. I belive in prophet muhammad(PBUH) while you dont..Humare rastey aur manzalein juda
what islam do you teach Sir?
Islam brought by Prophet Muahmmad(PBUH) or Hazrat Ghulam Ahmad?

ooo man...come on ..keep it short...a long post usually requires a very long reply...so wait till Monday...

[modern_newton]

DTOX: I tried to kept it short khair take ur time and try to read it now to understand my points and then you can reply whenever you have free time in ur hands mein konsa baga ja rha hoon aur tum be idar he hoo : D