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> Muhammad (saws) As The Final Messenger, ... of both the Script and Prophethood
mehmoodtily
post Jun 28 2004, 01:44 PM
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Assalamualaikum,

The main problem that i see is in the (mis)interpretation of the Quran that people do to make there point. (Like the word Khatem).

The interpretation of Quran should be based on Hadith/Sunna (for he was the walking Quran - by Aisha radi Allah tala anhu) and the circumstances in which they were revealed.

So what will you do about all the hadiths that says that no prophet or aposte will be after the prophet Muhammed peace be upon him. I am still waiting for answer of the following hadith:

Bukhari Shareef - Volume 5, Book 59, Number 700:
Narrated Sad:
Allah's Apostle set out for Tabuk. appointing 'Ali as his deputy (in Medina). 'Ali said, "Do you want to leave me with the children and women?" The Prophet said, "Will you not be pleased that you will be to me like Aaron to Moses? But there will be no prophet after me."


Please visit this site for more hadiths related to this subject:
http://www.animal-cruelty.com/last_prophet.htm

(Apart from hadith shareef, this website also explain the meaning of Seal of Prophets)


Question: Did Aaron (AS) brought any new sharia. Definitely no. So there will be no prophet (neither with new sharia nor without new sharia)

[Sorry for repeating the post but in previous post, there were no references]

Mehmood
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insha_ji
post Jun 28 2004, 01:52 PM
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both Mehmooditly and Rehan shaikh

You still havent touch the ayyet in Holy QUran and u still havent explained the word Khatama ,,,

also stik to topic im sure you will abide by the rules,,, Mr Rehan Shaikh only discuss Holy QUran and Hadith here not any site so jazakallah

You have not yet prove your point. so kindly do so before proceeding and jumping ahead of you, What Holy Prophet(saw) said he did say lot of things we can go on them as well....

He also said no prophet between him and imam mehdi and the Isa to come will be prhopet of Allah....

Before going and attacking first clear your belief.. anyhow argument at hand is

in holy quran the word Khatamanabiyyen is used.... so throw light on that


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beaitabari
post Jun 28 2004, 01:55 PM
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ok mr rehan .. reply to ur 2nd post:

its all worng a false blame on us by u and ur philosphers who thinks that Allah cant support His religion..
if u really wanna see the truth see our books and our literature instead of following the websites or books with no truth in them abt us...

and its not new most of non ahamdis are so into this british gov stuff i dont know why.. when one who is from Allah need no one for his support..

we belive in HAzoor (SAW) being the last prophet.. and completion of islam u keep ur icing to urself..


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insha_ji
post Jun 28 2004, 01:58 PM
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to Mr Rehan shaikh just to refute your point... another occasion the Holy Prophet (Saw) said...

It is narrated by Hazrat Ibne Abbaas (r.a.) that when iIbrahim, son of the Messenger of Allah passed away, the Prophet (pbuh) said his funeral prayer and said that there is a nurse for him in paradise and if he had lived he would have been a true prophet. -- [Ibne Maja vol. 1, Kitaabal Janaiz, p. 237]

Regarding the authenticity of this hadeeth, Shahaab Ali Baidaawi writes:

Ammaa sehat al-hadeethe falaa shub-hata feehi li-annahu rawaah-ubnu maajata waghairuhu,
i.e. There is no doubt about the authenticity of the hadeeth because it was reported by ibne maja etcetera. -- [Shahab Ali Baidaawi vol. 7, pg 175]

Similarly, Hazrat Mulla Ali Bin Muhammad Sultan al Qari, a renowned divine of the hanafi school of thought wrote:

"If Ibrahim had lived and became a prophet and likewise if Hazrat Umar became a prophet, then both of them would have remained his (the Prophet Muhammad's, pbuh) followers". -- [mauzoo'aati kabeer, p. 58]

...............................

I am well aware of what Holy Prohet (saw) i will also come to that hadith and point.

This post has been edited by insha_ji: Jun 28 2004, 01:59 PM


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rehanshaikh
post Jun 28 2004, 02:05 PM
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LIke i said....I am sorry if the post offends some ppl befire hand.


but, please trell me if the information provided by the site is wrong....especially the fact that MIRZA said that Jihad is unIslamic. when allah so clearly says.


" Strive in the way of Allah so that you may be successful" .......

How can you be a prophet of Allah if you so openly and unequivocally defy him.......If i said that MArxist regimes in the world are the best...if i call Castro a champion of human rights and then i call my self a capitalist...would you believe me..no you would tar and feather me and run me out of town....So how can you or any sane person with a shred of Logic can believe Quadiani to be prophet.


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insha_ji
post Jun 28 2004, 02:12 PM
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Rehanshaikh
One more time stik to the topic at hand dont jump ahead of you,, you will get chance to throw filth at us but not at this time,, we are trying to have a healthy discussion so if u cant contribute anything then stay away from this topic

Jazkallah


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YankeesFan
post Jun 28 2004, 02:12 PM
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QUOTE (insha_ji @ Jun 28 2004, 10:53 AM)
Now setting a seal on the heart and hearings means that no matter how much they hear, it will not make a difference but it cannot mean last heart or hearing. His heart will continue to beat and he will continue to hear, but his hearing and heart beats will not make a difference to his understanding. In the same way, Islam is complete, it has been sealed, but just as the blood flows through the heart after being sealed, it does not mean a new teacher cannot come to teach the same things.

Setting a Seal on their hearts is a kin to closing it to goodness not from the flow of blood. If all the arteries in the heart were Sealed then there would be no flow of blood. So their hearts were not physically sealed. But sealed away from goodness.

Seal - Close, finalize, consummate, conclude, COMPLETE.

Since we already agree that Prophet Muhammad (saw) is the seal of the prophets, then it would imply He was the last, He closed Prophet hood, he finalized Prophet hood, He consummated Prophet hood, he concluded prophet hood, And He completed Prophet hood. There is room for no other.

But the Quran sent down in Arabic and not in English. This is why I stated Earlier that we debate Khatam or Khatama as opposed to Seal.

"MAA KAANA MUHAMMADUN ABAA AHADIN MIRRIJAALIKUM
WALAAKIN RASOOLALLAHI WA KHATAMAN NABIYYEEN
The words used are 'Khataman-Nabiyyeen'.
Last Prophet.
I am not a linguist, but this is what I have found.
Khatama al = final
Khatam = final
Khitamu = last

Either way if we used Khatam or Khatama, they both mean the same thing. Prophet Muhammad (saw) is the last or final of the prophets.

Note: Unlike the Qadianies, even the Bahai accept this interpretation. They however have different issues.

This post has been edited by YankeesFan: Jun 28 2004, 02:36 PM
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rehanshaikh
post Jun 28 2004, 02:23 PM
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THIS POST IS SPECIFICALLY WRITTEN TO ANSWER INSHA JI'S TWO LATEST POSTS

To answer your fist post: regarding khattama:

when you write a letter, you only seal it when your letter is complete......You dont put a post it on the envelope and expect it to be delivered...its simple logic...its common sense......

Similarly when you seal a bank account you completely finish all transactions regarding that account....you dont leave an option that lets one take money out of it......its simple logic....its common sense.......


So WHEN YOU PUT A SEAL ON THE PROPHETHOOD. YOU COMPLETE IT. YOU SECURE IT. YOU TAKE AWAY ANY PERSON's RIGHT TO CLAIM PROPHET HOOD.....You would not believe any other persons claim of devine message..... ITS SIMPLE LOGIC......ITS COMMON SENSE

so to me ....by simple logic....by common sense....calling hazrat mohammed (SAW) the seal upon the prophethood reaffirms the message that he is the final prophet.....SO i didnot jump the gun....i just felt that this argument was put to rest.

Then maybe you would not be logical and may be your common sense is different from mine.....that is Ok...you have every right to it.


BUT SURAH AL MAIDA VERSE 3 proves the finality of prophethood no matter what your interpretation of the word Khat'ama is there is nothing ambiguous about it....it very eloquently pits the idea of Quadianism to its death....there is no two waying it. if you believe in the quran.....if you believe in Mohammad Bin Abdullah ( saw) 's prophethood....then you must believe in Surah Al MAIDA verse 3......and therefore you must believe in the finalty of the last prophet.



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mehmoodtily
post Jun 28 2004, 02:34 PM
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Assalamualaikum,

I think i mentioned that you are misinterpreting the verse of Quran. The interpretation of Quran is in the light of Hadith/Sunna. Furthermore, i gave the address of website that addresses all the hadiths as well as interpretation of this verse very well. If you want to, i can cut and paste it here.


Comments from the foot notes of the translation of Sheikh (Minister) Abdullah Yusuf Ali; may Allah Almighty rest his soul and make Heaven his final destiny: "When a document is sealed, it is complete, and there can be no further addition. The Holy Prophet Muhammad closed the long line of Messengers. Allah's teaching is and will always be continuous, but there has been and will be no Prophet after Muhammad. The later ages will want thinkers and reformers, not Prophets. This is not an arbitrary matter. It is a decree full of knowledge and wisdom, 'for Allah has full knowledge of all things.'"

I repeat the same thing. You can come up with any meaning if you twist things around. The correct interpretation is only in the light of Hadith and Sunna of the prophet peace be up on him.


And i am not giving one or two hadith (with ifs and buts), the website gives 7 hadiths without any ambiguos meaning.

Regards,
Mehmood
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insha_ji
post Jun 28 2004, 02:59 PM
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Before you start the blame game of twisting words around... see 2nd post of Destino he has already answer your question Mehmood and RehanShaikh....

Plus translation that he presented its not from any Ahmadi resourse its from varius scholars of islam for earlier times not recent ones. because recent scholars have less knowldge of arabic and its theme then the ones before.


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beaitabari
post Jun 28 2004, 03:13 PM
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assalamoalikum again ...

u do belive in coming back of Hadhrat Isa(AS).... but u also belive Hadhrat Isa was the prophet of his own umaah... and had his own book for his umaah..

for the umaah of our Prophet Hazoor SAW the religion is Islam and the book is the Holy Quran..

if Hazoor SAW is last prophet and there will be no new book or religion after him...then how come a prophet of different umaah with different book will come to make the astray muslims again to take them on right paths..?
this is comon sense now that on one hand ur saying Hazoor SAW will have no new shariya after him and on the other u are waiting for some prophet who has his own shariya?

also this so discalim the claim of urs saying Hazoor SAW is last prophet..
u r urself breaking it....

any ways i dont know how long it will go but other ahmadis here can answer much better than me...

take cares Allah hafiz..




This post has been edited by beaitabari: Jun 28 2004, 03:15 PM


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rehanshaikh
post Jun 28 2004, 03:16 PM
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@INSHA JI

Bhai, I am not blaiming any one.....I am not even questioning your literal translation of your word Khat'ama....BUT I AM APPEALING TO YOUR COMMON SENSE.

Me, Yankees fan and Mehmood tily in all of our meagre intellect have tried to explain to you, no matter what your interpretation of the term khat'am annubiyeen is. In every sense it proves the finality of the prophethood of Mohammed Al Arabi (saw).

and you brought to my attention....AGAIN...destino's post.... taking your word for the authenticity of the quoted words ...was said in 9th year of Al hijra.....right.

NOW the last cermon of the holy prophet took place on the 9th Day of the 12th month of the 10 th year of Alhijra.....In otherwords more than a full year afterwards of destino's quoted saying.......No argument there right....Now when the prophet in his last address ....which, incidentally, he delivered to the whole of MUSLIM UMMAH says these words...

People, no prophet or apostle will come after me and no new faith will be born. Reason well, therefore, O People, and understand words which I convey to you. .

I ask you...In all of your wisdom...DOES THIS LAST POST LEAVE ANY DOUBT...any DOUBT AT ALL......that QUADIANISM is false....MIRZA was not a prophet......in the spirit of this post...I ask of you to reason....to reason well.....there are no IFs in this quoted post unlike the quote that destino put forth....the words in no uncertain terms without a shadow of a doubt....close the door upon prophethood and SEAL them....again I ask you to reason and reason well.

This post has been edited by rehanshaikh: Jun 28 2004, 03:17 PM


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beaitabari
post Jun 28 2004, 03:28 PM
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rehan stick to topic agey mujh ko warnings mili hein .. i sense more coming.. lol

abhi tum ko milein gin pata lage gaa..
the answer to ur qesution is gievn by insha and destino
and by me as well why are u asking again and again?[


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rehanshaikh
post Jun 28 2004, 03:37 PM
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In response to BEAITEBARI


here is the word of the prophet Mohammed (saw):

My position in relation to the prophets who came before me can be explained by the following example: A man erected a building and adorned this edifice with great beauty, but he left an empty niche, in the corner where just one brick was missing. People looked around the building and marveled at its beauty, but wondered why a brick was missing from that niche? I am like unto that one missing brick and I am the last in the line of the Prophets.


this hadith can be found in the following books:

Bukhari, Muslim,Tirmidhi, Musnad Ahmad, Tirmizi, Babu Khatimin-Nabiyyin, Musnad Abu Dawud Tayalisi

HAzrat Isa didnot bring a religion different from Islam...like the prophet said his teachings are like a brick in that building of Islam.....we believe in Hazrat Issa because Allah and the prophet of Allah (saw) commanded us to believe in the prophet ISSA...as well as all the prophets that preceded him....( IMAN e MUFASSIL).

when Hazrat Issa comes back...he will not add to any of his teachings...he will not bring with him any prophecy from Allah....all of us agree on this....HE will not Add anything to the bible...but infact will fulfill the prophecy fortold in the Holy Quran itself....All of us agree on that.


Hazrat Issa was a prophet only to his UMMAh...BUT HAZRAT MOHAMMED (SAW) IS THE PROPHET FOR THE WHOLE OF MANKIND...it says so in his hadith...it says so in the quran...Allah calls The Prophet (saw) Rehamat al lil Alemeen...(beneficience for all of the worlds).......all of us agree on that.

so All of us would agree that The shariah ( i use this word for the lack of a better term) of Prophet Issa is no different from the Shariah of the Prophet Mohammed (saw)... he will not bring any other book to lead Muslims again.....Infact he himself would recite Kalima -e Shahdat and re affirm the prophethood of HAzrat Mihammed (saw)....So how on earth can the coming of Issa refute the finality of the Prophethood...again i ask of you to use the common sense Allah has given you.

Thankyou.

All of us also agree that the religion has been completed for us......All of us also agree in the authentication of the Quran.



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rehanshaikh
post Jun 28 2004, 03:47 PM
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I believe i have stuck to the topic. I have not deviated from the gist that that Quadianism is false....and I have tried in my feeble efforts to re affirm what has already been proven...the finality of the prophethood of Hazrat Mohammed (saw).

I don't think I have deviate dfrom the topic....if any of the moderators feel different pls pm me.

However...I come back to the topic...I ask ......tell me of one instance after the last sermon...where Hazrat Mohammed has ever left any shred of a doubt upon the finality of his message.

IF any thing....The last sermon of Prophet Mohammed (SAW) stamps out any ambiguity that may have risen ever in the finality of his prophethood.....if that doesnot satisfy you....I reiterate......Surah Al MAIDA verse 3...... completely destroys any logic behind Quadianism....If you believe in the authenticity of the Quran...then you cannot believe in Ahmediyya movement....either the Quran is wrong (na- awoozo billah) or Quadianism is wrong.....THE CHOICE IS YOURS.

This post has been edited by rehanshaikh: Jun 28 2004, 03:48 PM


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crazay
post Jun 28 2004, 04:00 PM
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Sheesh! Did anybody read my post!? I recommend people do!

I'd like 2 elaborate on YKF's post and bear witness to the fact since it is evident that the text can bear one meaning and it is that Khatam-al-Nabiyeen stands for the Finality of Prophethood with a clear implication that the prophethood has been culminated and finalized in Muhammad (sws). It is not only the context that supports this interpretation but also the lexicography.

According to Arabic lexicon and the linguistic usage Khatam means to affix seal; to close, to come to an end; and to carry something to its ultimate end.

Khatama al-'Amala is equivalent to 'Faragha min al-'Almali' which means 'to get over with the task.' 'Khatama al-Ina' bears the meaning 'The vessel has been closed and sealed so that nothing can go into it, nor can its contents spill out.'

'Khatam-al-kitab' conveys the meaning 'The letter has been enclosed and sealed so that it is finally secured.'

'Khatama-'Ala-al-Qalb' means 'The heart has been sealed so that it cannot perceive anything new nor can it forswear what it has already imbibed.'

'Khitamu-Kulli-Mashrubin' implies 'the final taste that is left in the mouth when the drink is over.'

Katimatu Kulli Shaiinn 'Aqibatuhu wa Akhiratuhu means "The end in the case of everything denotes its doom and ultimate finish." Khatm-ul-Shaii Balagha Akhirahu conveys the sense, "To end a thing means to carry it to its ultimate limit."

>>> Do you guys see a TREND here!? ^^^^

Now be good and fair and read my second post, which comes as part II of the above!





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crazay
post Jun 28 2004, 04:06 PM
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^^^ follow HERE:

The term Khatam-i-Qur'an is used in the similar sense and the closing verses of Qur'anic Surahs are referred to as Khawatim. Khatim-ul-Qaum Akhirhuum means "The last man in the tribe." (Refer to Lisan-ul-'Arab; Qamus and Aqrab-ul- Muwarid).

[pssst! I have referred to three lexicons here, yet the elucidation of this point is not confined to these works alone. All authoritative dictionaries of the Arabic language interpret the word Khatam in the sense that i have given to it. But the deniers of the Finality of Prophethood *aham* in their endeavor to make a sneaky assault on ISLAM argue that if we refer to someone as 'Last of the Poets' or 'Last of the Legists' or 'Last of the Commentators', we do not necessarily mean that no poet, legist or commentator will come after them; rather we only mean to say that all excellence of their act has been concentrated in such men. NOW...the ACTUAL position, however, is that when we do use these exaggerated epithets for someone we do not thereby replace or remove the original meaning of the word 'Last'. It is preposterous to assume that by its metaphorical use to refer to the excellence or perfection of a man, the word 'Last' loses its original or real significance which is 'Final'. Such an assumption can only be accepted by a person who lacks elementary knowledge of the rules of grammar. There is no grammatical principle in any language by which the metaphorical meaning of a word may be taken as its real or original meaning. Besides, the metaphorical meaning in no case replaces or obliterates the real and basic meaning of the word.

NOW FOLLOW:

When you tell an Arab 'Ja Khatam ul-Qaum', he will certainly not take it to mean that 'the perfect or the most excellent man of the tribe has come.' He will, on the other hand, take it to mean that 'the whole tribe, even to the last man, has come.'!!!

There is another point to be considered. Such terms as the 'Last Poet', the Last Legist' or the 'Last Narrator of hadith' are eulogies used by men for other human beings whom they deem to be perfect and excellent. Those who use these hyperboles for other men certainly can not say, nor do they know, that people of such excellence will come in later times or not. So in human language these appellations are hyperboles, but when God uses for a person that such and such quality has been culminated in him, there is no reason to take it in the metaphorical sense in the strain of human expression. If Allah had pronounced someone as 'Last Poet', he would have been last poet in the literal sense of the word. If Allah appoints someone as His 'Last Prophet', there is absolutely no possibility of any other person attaining to that dignity after that.
God is Omniscient. Man has but limited knowledge. This being so, how can one construe the human praise of a person as 'Last Poet' or the last of the jurists in the same sense as God's pronouncement of a person as the 'Last Prophet'?
rolleyes.gif ]

For this reason all linguists and commentators agree that Khatam-ul-Nabiyeen means 'The Last in the line of Prophets.' The word Khatam in its dictionary meaning and linguistic usage does not refer to the post office stamp which is affixed on the outgoing mail. Its literal meaning is the 'seal' which is but on the envelope to secure its contents. OK?

This post has been edited by crazay: Jun 28 2004, 04:06 PM
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crazay
post Jun 28 2004, 04:09 PM
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I will come back later to address destino's second post about ahadith and also present and back it with showing the consensus of the companions AND the consesus of the ullema IN our very ummah.
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YankeesFan
post Jun 28 2004, 06:13 PM
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QUOTE (insha_ji @ Jun 28 2004, 01:58 PM)
to Mr Rehan shaikh just to refute your point... another occasion the Holy Prophet (Saw) said...

It is narrated by Hazrat Ibne Abbaas (r.a.) that when iIbrahim, son of the Messenger of Allah passed away, the Prophet (pbuh) said his funeral prayer and said that there is a nurse for him in paradise and if he had lived he would have been a true prophet. -- [Ibne Maja vol. 1, Kitaabal Janaiz, p. 237]


The Important word here is if, if there would be any other prophet after him, it would have been Umar(ra). Hazarat Umar (RA) certainly lived after Prophet Muhammad, so why did not get become a Prophet? Because Prophet Muhammad said if there were to be prophets after him. Since the case is NO, Umar(ra) cannot and did not become a Prophet.

Similarly in the case of Hazarat Ibrahim, ProphetHood had come to a close which is why he did not live past childhood. Don't you think this also may be the reason Prophet Muhammad(saw) did not have any other male progeny. If he had survived he would have been expectedto be a prophet by the Ummah. Hazarat Ail a clear example through his son in law relationship to Prophet Muhammad(saw).
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Destino
post Jun 28 2004, 07:28 PM
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Thanks for your replies. It is my request to all the participants not to leave the topic at hand.

I will come to all the points raised by crazay, rahansheikh and Mahmood one by one.

The Hadith presented by Mahmood. I quote.

Bukhari Shareef - Volume 5, Book 59, Number 700:
Narrated Sad:
Allah's Apostle set out for Tabuk. appointing 'Ali as his deputy (in Medina). 'Ali said, "Do you want to leave me with the children and women?" The Prophet said, "Will you not be pleased that you will be to me like Aaron to Moses? But there will be no prophet after me."

There is another Hadith is Bukhari Kitabul Eeman walnuzoor Vol 4, narrated Abu Huraira “ Rusoolullah (saw) said, When Khosroe (king of Persia) will die, there will be no Khosroe after him, and when this Ceaser (king of Rome) will die, there will be no Caser after him.”

In both instances the word Ba’ad is used. There were more ceasers and more khosroes after that. But they were not of the same grandeur and pomp as they were before..
Its just like the famous saying about Ali (ra), La fata Illa Ali, la saif illa dhulfikaar. But there are young men still and there are swords too.. But the whole purpose of the saying is the quality and position of Ali (ra), which is special. Same is applied to the above two ahadith.

I will discuss the word baa’d (after) now. Let me give you an example from Quran.

Surah Al-Jathiyah 045: 06. Fa bi Ayye hadeethin ba’da Allahi wa aayaatihee yu’minoon. (Then in what fact, after Allah and His portents, will they believe?)
Here the word Baa’d means against.

An example from Bukhari.

Al kitabul Mughazi, vol 3, narrated abu Huraira; “Rusoolullah (saw) said, I saw two gold bracelets in dream which I blew on and they vanished. I have interpreted that these are two liars who will appear after (ba’ad) me,. One is Aswad Anasi and the other is Mussailimah.”
Here ba’ad means against.. and not after.. As both of them appeared in the life time of Rusoolullah (saw). As this hadith confirms.

Here Mr Rehansheikh has been stressing on the verse Alyouma akmaltu lakum. For his kind information, Ahamdies believe that Shariat and Deen is complete in the form of Quran and Sunnah of Rusoolullah (saw). The matter of second coming of Isa (as) will have to be discussed to clear off his confusion on why a reviver was needed.



The verse Khatamun Nabiyyeen as explained by crazay:

The context of the verse was mentioned that it was regarding the issue of Rusoolullah (saw)’s marriage with Zainab (ra). But there are verses in the surah which directly address the issue. Your explanation of this verse in that context does not make any sense to me. This verse shows the high status of the Prophet (saw) and is the reply to the allegation of Holy Prophet (saw) having no male issue. The verse explains clearly that having physical progeny is not the sign of excellence of the greatest prophet of all, but infact its his being khatamun nabiyyeen which makes him spiritual father of all believing men, including the prophets who had come and passed.

Lets come to the word Khatam now. Who do you think will explain the usage of the word khatam in the best possible way? Will you accept hadith. The word of Holy Prophet (saw) above all dictionaries and authors?? I think you will.. the modern or popular use of the word will not resolve the problem.. as the usage of words has changed with time. and thats how languages change.. the best way to find the answer is to find the usage in the religious texts written by famous scholars who used the word according to their "better" understanding. But as that might not convince you, lets just take the words of Holy Prophet (saw).

Example 1. “Rusoolullah (saw) said; O my uncle Abbas, be at peace as you are Khatamul muhajireen just as I am khatamun nabiyyeen.” (kanzul Ummal vol 6, pp 178)

2. “ I am khatamul anbiyaa and Ali! You are khatamul awsiyaa”. (kunoozul haqaiq).
3. “I am khatamul anbiyaa and Ali! You are khatamul awliyaa” (tafseer safi)

similarly this word is used widely among the scholars and saints respected by all at various occasions to describe someone’s excellence.. and not being the last..

I can give you a list of famously used "khatams" in classical Arabic texts if you want me to.. with references and the names of authors.. who were much better then the common folk which speaks arabic these days..

This post has been edited by Destino: Jun 28 2004, 07:41 PM


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Prince Ali
post Jun 28 2004, 07:57 PM
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It looks like Qadianis have nothing else to say except a few ahadith, grossly misterpreted by them to fit their purpose.

I never see anything new in their posts. Same old stuff being repeated again and again. Each of what is being discussed right now has already been discussed in the past, and answered as well.

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Destino
post Jun 28 2004, 07:58 PM
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Another hadith quoted by Mr. Sheikh is

"My position in relation to the prophets who came before me can be explained by the following example: A man erected a building and adorned this edifice with great beauty, but he left an empty niche, in the corner where just one brick was missing. People looked around the building and marveled at its beauty, but wondered why a brick was missing from that niche? I am like unto that one missing brick and I am the last in the line of the Prophets".

Can you please tell me what the "building" stands for?



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mehmoodtily
post Jun 28 2004, 08:02 PM
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Assalamualaikum,


Can anyone please tell me why there are so many hadiths as well as verse in Quran that there will be no prophet after the prophet Muhammed peace be upon him while there is no hadith that clearly state that there will be more prophets and people have to follow them just like the prophet Muhammed peace be upon him or prophet Aaron (AS). Do not you think that if more prophets had to come after the prophet Muhammed peace be upon him, it would be stated in the Quran that there will be more prophet and to follow them. Neither is it mentioned in hadiths that there will be more prophets after prophet Muhammed peace be upon him. Also, if there were more prophets to follow, the hadiths would atleast mention some of the characteristics of that prophet. (In the similar way as it is present for Hazrat Isa (AS) and Imam Mehdi). However, there is a hadith warning against the liars who claim to be prophets.

You can play with all the words and sentences to get your meaning but i think that is the reason the following verse was revealed:

"It is He who has sent down on thee the Book, in which are signs firmly established that are the basis of the Book, and others ambiguous. As for those in whose hearts is swerving, they follow such thereof as is ambiguous, seeking dissention and seeking its interpretation; but none knows its interpretation except God. And those firmly rooted in knowledge say, `We believe in it; all is from our Lord'; yet only the men of understanding take heed. (Quran 3:7)"


Mehmood

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YankeesFan
post Jun 28 2004, 08:13 PM
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^^^
I second that.
Throughout History prophets and Messengers of Allah were sent down to guide mankind. They all foretold oncoming messengers and One Messenger in specific. The Last and the Greatest Messenger of Allah, Prophet Muhammad (saw). There are signs of his coming in all the scriptures in all of the religions of man on earth. His auspicious advent was long awaited from before Prophet Adam(a.s) creation. His name is so great that it is written next to Allah’s(swt) Arsh and in our hearts. The best of creation, The sole reason why Allah created creation, the most esteemed Messenger of Allah, with the Highest station was the Long Awaited Mercy to Mankind. Through him(saw), Allah completed and perfected Islam, and because of him, no other messenger or a prophet is needed. Otherwise you are casting doubt on Allah’s perfection and the perfect character of Quran personified(saw). If there were a prophet to follow such majestic Prophet(saw) why do all the other scriptures end with him(saw)? Why is prophet hood “sealed” in every scripture after the advent of our noble prophet (saw)? If there were to be a new prophet, why weren’t the Muslims advised to follow him. Why wouldn’t Prophet(saw) name him like he did with Jesus and Imam Mahdi. If prophet hood was not sealed, then there would be more prophets from Allah who would be on the righteous path.. If this were the case, Prophet Muhammad(saw) would have advised us to follow them. No instructions, names, or even descriptions were given or left. Rather the opposite, warnings of Liars was given.

This post has been edited by YankeesFan: Jun 28 2004, 09:42 PM
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cr33d
post Jun 28 2004, 08:16 PM
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lol np
All right. I have a few questions to all those who do not believe in the finality of the Prophet Muhammad SAW.

Why has no other person able to perform miracles such as he (SAW) did?

Why did no other person receive the SANCTION of Allah in the Holy Quran as he (SAW) did?

Why is it that there has been no holy book after the Quran, or an extension of the Holy Quran?

And WHY is Prophet Muhammad Salallaho alaihe wa sallam in the Shahadah?

smile.gif


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rehanshaikh
post Jun 28 2004, 08:28 PM
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QUOTE (Destino @ Jun 29 2004, 12:28 AM)
Ahamdies believe that Shariat and Deen is complete in the form of Quran and Sunnah of Rusoolullah (saw).

lets just take this one statement by destino.


So quadianis believe that the religion is complete.....this statement by destino proves it.

NOt a single quadiani can argue that the Quran is as authentic as it was 1400 yrs ago......Similarly, not a single Quadiani can argue that Sunnah and Hadit has been completely preserved and is as authentic as it was 1400 years ago.

So all avenues of guidance QURAN as well as SUNNAH and HADITH are avilable now...and were available to muslims in the 1890s....{when Mirza proclaimed prophethood...and died the way he died}....So why this sudden urge of Allah to send a prophet.....Does that make any sense to anyone...HElloooo!!!! any body........would you built the most magnificent mansion and then for no good reason dump a pile of bricks in the front yard.....Ofcourse not!!!! it would be lunacy.......ALLAH is a being of infinite wisdom......why would he show such ( NA AWOOZ O BILLAH) carelessness with something as sacred as prophethood.


==========================================================================

BUT THIS RANT OF MINE IS BESIDE THE POINT..............yankees fan, Mehmoodtily,crazay and yours truly have brought forth enough proof to convince any skeptic using commonsense to change his view......All i saw in return were weak arguments .......twisting around schematics and finding unhidden archaic meanings of words that all of us know the meaning of.


Let us summarise:

the mean of the word "khat'ama": CRAZAY's last post has proven unequivocally, undoubtedly and in no uncertain terms what the word means.....Jazak ullah...all i saw from insha ji and destino was mangling of the use of the word 'seal'....needless to say....that argument of quadianis is very weak !! at best.

The last sermon of the holy Prophet: the sermon at the time of Hajj ul widda...leaves no doubt that prophethood is completed after him....he has in no uncertain terms said tehre will be no prophet after him.....This statement alone should have driven the nail in the coffin of quadiyaaniyat..........needless to say, the feebleness of the quadiani argument is such that...they completely ignore this statement.

the ahadith attributed to hazrat miohammed s.a.w. at the time of death of his son: yankees fans recent post answers that argument beautifully......the main argument is IF....the prophet's son didnot succeed him...so there is no way that he would have carried forth prophethood.....Hazrat umar did live after the time of death....yet he was not a prophet...he never claimed to be a prophet...no body ever even mentioned any hint that they might consider Umar Al farooq a prophet....and all that when we have the statement of Hazrat Mohammed s.a.w. saying that if prophethood moved forth it would have moved through Umar....putting another nail in the corpse of quadiyaaniyat.

SURAH al MAIDA verse 3 this verse demolishes any argument, no matter how feeble, how shabby, how unbelievably transparent, when Allah says he completed his favor upon us and completes his deen for us and chooses islam as that religion......ther isn't an iota of room for any pathetic argument for the succession of prophethood.

these iron clad proofs of the finality of prophethood shatter any argument against finality of prophet hood......now either you believe in the quran, in the prophet Mohammed s.a.w. oryou believe in mirza.....there is no two ways about it.

=============================================================================


now heres even more proof for the finality of prophet hood.


the quran: Surah Al BAQARAH ayat 2-5

This is the Scripture whereof there is no doubt, a guidance unto those who fear Allah, believe in the Unseen, are steadfast in prayer, give charity from what We have provided for them, and believe in the Revelation sent to you (O Muhammad) and before you, and (in their hearts) have the assurance of the Hereafter. They are on (true) guidance, from their Lord, and it is these who shall be successful.

look carefully.

believe in the guidance before you and the guidance sent to you......THERE IS NO GUIDANCE SENT AFTER YOU!!!!!!



THIS NEXT HADITH HAS TO BE THE FINAL STRAW...THE COUPE de GRACE......for this is how the prophet distinguishes himself from all other messengers of ALLAH:

God has bestowed upon me six favors which the former Prophets did not enjoy:

I have been endowed with the gift of pithy and perfect speech.

I was granted victory owing to my awe.

The spoils of war were made lawful unto me.

The whole earth has been made the place of worship for me and it has become the means of purification for me also. In other words, in my religion, offering of prayers is not confined to certain specified places of worship. Prayers can be offered at any place over the earth. And in case water is not available, it is lawful for my people to perform ablutions with earth (Tayammum) and to cleanse themselves with the soil, if water for bathing is scarce.

I have been sent by Allah to carry His Divine message to the whole world.

And the line of prophets has come to its final end in me
.



ALHAM DO LILLAH


there can be no doubt after this for the finality of the messenger of Allah. s.a.w.

No play on semantics, No argument over the literal meaning of the words.......ABSOLUTELY NOTHING

===============================================================

May Allah show the light to those who refute his word out of ignorance...and may Allah destroy those who refute his commands out of sheer malice.....for whoever Allah guides ..none can lead him astray and...whoever Allah misguides....no one can bring him/her to right.


Wasalam

This post has been edited by rehanshaikh: Jun 28 2004, 08:29 PM


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Prince Ali
post Jun 28 2004, 08:34 PM
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When someone gave the hadith about Prophet saying to Ali that he is like Musa to him except that there no prophet after him, Destino says:

Destino:
QUOTE
Here the word Baa’d means against.


Qadianis HAVE to (mis)translate the word baad as 'against'. Reason being that the correct translation of baad as 'after' completely nullifies their case, and proves them heretic.

Prophet says to Ali: " O Ali! You hold in relation to me the same position as Harun held in relation to Musa except that la nabiyya baadi (there will be no prophet after me).

So Qadianis translate baadi as 'against' instead of 'after'.

But the thing is that these words 'la nabiyya baadi' are not used only in this one hadith. They have been used in various other similar ahadith, and in each of these other ahadith Qadianis accept the word 'baadi' to mean 'after me' rather than 'against me'.

-

Some other ahadith which use 'la nabiyya baadi' are:
- "There will be thirty liars in my Ummah, each of them claiming to be a Prophet, but I am the Khatam-un-Nabiyeen, there is no Prophet after me."
(Sunan Abu Daud, Kitab al-Fitan)

- "The tribe of Israel was guided by Prophets. When a Prophet passed away, another Prophet succeeded him. But no Prophet will come after me; only Caliphs will succeed me". (Bukhari)
- "The chain of Messengers and Prophets has come to an end. There shall be no Messenger nor Prophet after me".
(Tirimzi, Masnad Ahmed)
and other ahadith.

-

This is a Qadiani website, and it translates 'baadi' as 'after me':

http://www.alislam.org/library/books/truth..._section_2.html
QUOTE: "Thus we find that the Haidth La Nabia Ba'di (There is no Prophet after me), and other reports in Hadith..."UNQUOTE

In another book, Qadianis reaffirm the meaning of baadi in such ahadith:
http://www.alislam.org/books/invitation/prelim.html#L16
QUOTE: "Now, let us turn to the Saying 'There is no prophet after me.' This Saying also cannot mean that there is to be literally no prophet after the Holy Prophet."UNQUOTE

-

Now why is that 'baadi' is accepted to mean as 'after' in all ahadith ESCEPT this one? It's obvious. If Qadianis accept 'baadi' to mean 'after' here as well, then this particular hadith about Hazrat Ali leaves no doubt that Prophet was talking about ALL kinds of prophethood, that is, both law-bearing and non-law-bearing.
Hence they would have to decept others (and themselves) by making a different translation of this word which they apply ONLY to this hadith.

-

Our Qadiani friend gives this hadith to prove his point:

Destino:
QUOTE
Al kitabul Mughazi, vol 3, narrated abu Huraira; “Rusoolullah (saw) said, I saw two gold bracelets in dream which I blew on and they vanished. I have interpreted that these are two liars who will appear after (ba’ad) me,. One is Aswad Anasi and the other is Mussailimah.”
Here ba’ad means against.. and not after.. As both of them appeared in the life time of Rusoolullah (saw). As this hadith confirms.


Nowhere did Prophet say that they will appear AFTER HIS DEATH. He said they will appear AFTER him, and they did appear AFTER Prophet's own declaration of prophethood.

Why do Qadianis think that 'after me' means 'after my death'? From where did they get this idea? Harun AS was prophet in Musa's lifetime, yet he became prophet AFTER Musa (without Musa AS being dead first). Similarly, Yousuf AS was prophet AFTER Yaqoob AS, even though Yaqoob was not dead.

--

Oh. I missed the aayat our Qadiani friend cited. Here we go:

QUOTE
Surah Al-Jathiyah 045: 06. Fa bi Ayye hadeethin ba’da Allahi wa aayaatihee yu’minoon. (Then in what fact, after Allah and His portents, will they believe?)
Here the word Baa’d means against.


Consider this. It explains this verse.

[Yusufali 45:6] Such are the Signs of Allah, which We rehearse to thee in Truth; then in what exposition will they believe after (rejecting) Allah and His Signs?

So the word baad still means 'after', not 'against'. By saying what would they believe 'after' Allah and His Signs, Allah means 'after rejecting' Him and His Signs.


This post has been edited by Prince Ali: Jun 29 2004, 02:32 PM
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beaitabari
post Jun 29 2004, 06:19 AM
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Assalamoalikum well ALI^^i have seen it a lot by u and some other ppl here that they keep taking the wrong meaning of our literature and argue on them u dont listen to waht we say and claim about our teachings but instead u say keh its written like this and that..... its wont help u or us instead u and we will keep arguing with no result in the end.. also when the topic goes on same stuff all the time then ofcourse we quote same things ..otherwise u get warnings saying stick to the topic.. ..smile.gif
i think destino has given enough answers...


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beaitabari
post Jun 29 2004, 06:32 AM
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QUOTE (rehanshaikh @ Jun 28 2004, 08:37 PM)
In response to BEAITEBARI


here is the word of the prophet Mohammed (saw):

My position in relation to the prophets who came before me can be explained by the following example: A man erected a building and adorned this edifice with great beauty, but he left an empty niche, in the corner where just one brick was missing. People looked around the building and marveled at its beauty, but wondered why a brick was missing from that niche? I am like unto that one missing brick and I am the last in the line of the Prophets.


this hadith can be found in the following books:

Bukhari, Muslim,Tirmidhi, Musnad Ahmad, Tirmizi, Babu Khatimin-Nabiyyin, Musnad Abu Dawud Tayalisi

HAzrat Isa didnot bring a religion different from Islam...like the prophet said his teachings are like a brick in that building of Islam.....we believe in Hazrat Issa because Allah and the prophet of Allah (saw) commanded us to believe in the prophet ISSA...as well as all the prophets that preceded him....( IMAN e MUFASSIL).

when Hazrat Issa comes back...he will not add to any of his teachings...he will not bring with him any prophecy from Allah....all of us agree on this....HE will not Add anything to the bible...but infact will fulfill the prophecy fortold in the Holy Quran itself....All of us agree on that.


Hazrat Issa was a prophet only to his UMMAh...BUT HAZRAT MOHAMMED (SAW) IS THE PROPHET FOR THE WHOLE OF MANKIND...it says so in his hadith...it says so in the quran...Allah calls The Prophet (saw) Rehamat al lil Alemeen...(beneficience for all of the worlds).......all of us agree on that.

so All of us would agree that The shariah ( i use this word for the lack of a better term) of Prophet Issa is no different from the Shariah of the Prophet Mohammed (saw)... he will not bring any other book to lead Muslims again.....Infact he himself would recite Kalima -e Shahdat and re affirm the prophethood of HAzrat Mihammed (saw)....So how on earth can the coming of Issa refute the finality of the Prophethood...again i ask of you to use the common sense Allah has given you.

Thankyou.

All of us also agree that the religion has been completed for us......All of us also agree in the authentication of the Quran.

u have got answer from destino as well but ok u asked from me so here goes: smile.gif

i love this hadith its really very nice ...

yes ok but the religion was only completed in the shape of Islam .. i have heard this quote that when the universe was not made even then the name of Allah and His prophet AHAzooor SAW was written ...

see u are again urself saying that Hadhrat Isa As was the prophet of his own umaah so how come the last and most maginificent of all the prophet AHazoor SAW needed an other prophet of different ummah for his umaah?

and more over rehan Christains do belive in Hadhrat ISa AS if he will return then wont they claim they are right for making three Gods?wont they say its there prophet or wt ever thier belifes is i know u will keep arguing now..but hey this is common sense u are making a joke of ur own religion ...
ok take cares ..


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Areesha
post Jun 29 2004, 07:37 AM
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QUOTE (mehmoodtily @ Jun 27 2004, 03:42 PM)
Assalamualaikum to Muslims and hello to Qadiyanis/Ahmadis (and all other non muslims),


So first of all Assalamualaikum to you and to all those who call themselves Muslims.
As a Muslim you should know that we really dont have any right to call someone non_Muslim who calls himself a Muslim.
So I think this is an important point you should take care of,during talking about
Ahmadis and non_Ahmadis.

Thanks
Allah Hafiz


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